Enforcement of Byelaws 4, 6, 7.

[Merseysider]

Caught a late-night train back from MAN to Salford where about 20-30 passengers were drunk and creating a racket. I don't mean drunk as in 'so what, deal with it'. Drunk as in "we're here to p*ss everyone else off and we don't give a crap if our barbaric yawping and primitive hooting is giving you a migraine".
There were 5 police officers at MAN platform 14 who didn't do anything nor did the staff on board.

I was only on the Northern train for 20 minutes (delayed by 10 mins unsurprisingly) but I felt sorry for everyone who had to endure that hell all the way to Wigan. Merseyrail are great at dealing with antisocial behaviour; Northern; not so much.

Do TOCs have a responsibility under their Franchise Agreement or the Transport Act to enforce Byelaws or is it merely their right?

 

[PG]

That's an interesting one - and even if they do have a responsibility to enforce the byelaws why bother if no one forces them to do so? I guess that is down to DfT if it's part of the franchise agreement.

My house and all the rest on the streets around have a clause in the deeds which prohibits vans and caravans being parked yet a wee stroll sees a few caravans and numerous vans parked. The clause dates from the original owner of the land who I suspect was just happy to be quids in years ago and has no interest in enforcing the clause.

 

[Merseysider]

That's an interesting one - and even if they do have a responsibility to enforce the byelaws why bother if no one forces them to do so? I guess that is down to DfT if it's part of the franchise agreement.

I did have a look at the franchise agreement for Northern Rail but being 461 pages long I soon gave up.

Similarly, with the Transport Act 2000 consisting of 280 sections I couldn't find what I was looking for.

I imagine part of their agreement would be to keep stock in good condition, and how are they supposed to do that if they are repeatedly allowing / ignoring littering, vomiting and urinating (yes, I've seen it happen) on their trains?

And how is the driver supposed to concentrate when he's got a zoo on board? I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou but there is a line that has to be drawn somewhere.

My house and all the rest on the streets around have a clause in the deeds which prohibits vans and caravans being parked yet a wee stroll sees a few caravans and numerous vans parked. The clause dates from the original owner of the land who I suspect was just happy to be quids in years ago and has no interest in enforcing the clause.

That's an interesting example; so the land owner exercises selective enforcement of that clause.

Northern certainly seem selective in which Byelaws they wish to enforce, namely, the one that comes between 17 and 19 and nothing else.

 

[PG]

And how is the driver supposed to concentrate when he's got a zoo on board? I'm not trying to sound holier-than-thou but there is a line that has to be drawn somewhere.

Northern certainly seem selective in which Byelaws they wish to enforce, namely, the one that comes between 17 and 19 and nothing else.

You're right the line has to be drawn somewhere - I'd imagine the driver would be quite within their rights to say they were unable to continue safely if said zoo was performing right behind the cab.

I guess all TOCs have a vested interest in enforcing that Byelaw.

 

[MyFriendMary]

More agro to say no, than yes?

Was the Gateline in operation that time of night as a means of obstructing entrance to the drunks?

 

[Greenback]

Caught a late-night train back from MAN to Salford where about 20-30 passengers were drunk and creating a racket. I don't mean drunk as in 'so what, deal with it'. Drunk as in "we're here to p*ss everyone else off and we don't give a crap if our barbaric yawping and primitive hooting is giving you a migraine".
There were 5 police officers at MAN platform 14 who didn't do anything nor did the staff on board.

The police would probably prefer the drunks to be on the train and going hom,e than to have to arrest them, which would probably have ended up happening had they tried to enforce the byelaws.

On board staff will not do much as they are trained to avoid confrontation at all costs (and the resulting staff absences are costly) and may well be disciplined or dismissed if they are deemed to have provoked an incident.

Do TOCs have a responsibility under their Franchise Agreement or the Transport Act to enforce Byelaws or is it merely their right?

I believe that they have the right to enforce the byelaws, but not a responsibility. As do local councils in many cases with local byelaws.

That's an interesting one - and even if they do have a responsibility to enforce the byelaws why bother if no one forces them to do so? I guess that is down to DfT if it's part of the franchise agreement.

If all the byelaews were enforced, all of the time, it would be a nightmare. Have you seen how many people get on a tain before passengers have finished getting off?

My house and all the rest on the streets around have a clause in the deeds which prohibits vans and caravans being parked yet a wee stroll sees a few caravans and numerous vans parked. The clause dates from the original owner of the land who I suspect was just happy to be quids in years ago and has no interest in enforcing the clause.

Off topic a bit, but that sound slike a restrictive covenant, which were quite common in the days before planning regulations. They are less common now but still happen, usually, as you say, when a piece of land is sold off and the original owner wants to ensure certain things are or are not done by the successors in title.

Again, though, some of the requirements may be difficult to enforce or simply not worth the effort of enforcing, as costly court action would probably be necessary.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I believe that they have the right to enforce the byelaws, but not a responsibility. As do local councils in many cases with local byelaws.

That is correct. There is no compulsion to enforce a Byelaw and no penalty for not doing so.

 

[Merseysider]

Was the Gateline in operation that time of night as a means of obstructing entrance to the drunks?

Nope, a grand total of 0 Northern / G4S staff on the ground at MAN.

The police would probably prefer the drunks to be on the train and going home than to have to arrest them, which would probably have ended up happening had they tried to enforce the byelaws.

On board staff will not do much as they are trained to avoid confrontation at all costs (and the resulting staff absences are costly) and may well be disciplined or dismissed if they are deemed to have provoked an incident.

I can understand that; the staff would see their career as more important. But what is the point in having byelaws if they aren't going to be enforced?

I believe that they have the right to enforce the byelaws, but not a responsibility. As do local councils in many cases with local byelaws.

Gotcha. Sort of like Wirral council not enforcing their no-drinking-in-the-park byelaws.

If all the byelaews were enforced, all of the time, it would be a nightmare. Have you seen how many people get on a train before passengers have finished getting off?

Oh aye. Byelaw 10 and all that. Honestly, the Manchester to Glasgow / Edinburgh / Barrow-in-Furness trains cause a stampede more often that not.

That is correct. There is no compulsion to enforce a Byelaw and no penalty for not doing so.

Well, I've learned something new I guess some TOCs see antisocial behaviour as less of a problem than others do :heavy sigh:

 

[Greenback]

I think that the byelaws are there to be used if are needed, rather than as a way to police the railway on a day to day basis.

 

[TDK]

There is a safety issue with people who are under the influence of alcohol however if they are just noisy and able to board and egress a train safely at least they are not driving their cars. I think there should be a line drawn where if someone is very drunk and could affect their safety or the safety of others they should be banned from travelling but you cannot stop all people who have had a drink from travelling. I have had to deal with many drunk people and if you ask them nicely to keep quiet they normally do, if they don't the threat of them not travelling on the last train normally shuts them up.