Colchester - Liverpool: Cheaper to split, has anyone ever noticed this?

[mrredrunner100]

hi

most probable some people may have noticed this already but i thought id share it anyway

i have been doing some trip planning for a thing this year and i have found something interesting and this is when booking a ticket across london it is often cheaper to split the ticket journey up when travelling across london as i cant find any advanced fares for this

so for example if i book a ticket from colchester - liverpool it will be around £98 just an anytime single but if i do it like this
col - lst = £10 (advanced)
lst - eus = £2.20 using oyster
eus - liverpool lime street = £35 looking at the cheapest one (advance)

all together it is £47.20

all that is going on a standard adult single using advance where necessary

has anyone ever noticed this before?


----old post above-----additions below----------
all times have been worked for the 9/3/14 and departing at around either 11am or 12pm

 

[Segedunum]

I can see some £46 advances on the East Coast Website from Colchester-Liverpool via London. Although that's a very small saving on what you've suggested.

 

[mrredrunner100]

cool, i was using the national rail website and working for tommrow (9/3/14) at around midday and i noticed this because of some col-cardiff journeys i have been looking at, and nearly all the time it has been coming out with anytime. then i broke the route up and i found it was cheaper

 

[Segedunum]

Ah, I was looking at a couple of weeks in the future. I can see one from 0906 to 1354 tomorrow though.

 

[mrredrunner100]

cool, i found a 9:06 for £30 and that is the only advance fare i have seen going via london must be the time of day i guess for this trip

 

[yorkie]

so for example if i book a ticket from colchester - liverpool it will be around £98 just an anytime single ....

What time do you wish to travel?

How far in advance are you able to book?

 

[mrredrunner100]

What time do you wish to travel?

How far in advance are you able to book?

i am not travelling it was an example i used to explain what i have found out...hope i started this thread in the right section

i have found this on other routes too not just col-liverpool

 

[SS4]

I found it on Birmingham to Ipswich a number of years ago and put it down to the availability of seats off peak through London. Managed to get 4x£3.30 tickets (plus 2 Oyster singles if we get pedantic)

 

[yorkie]

i am not travelling it was an example i used to explain what i have found out...hope i started this thread in the right section

ok, can you give example departure time(s) where what you found out applies?

 

[tony_mac]

This is very common with some companies.

I think the '& connections' part of a ticket has some sort of fixed pricing, but there may well be some much cheaper advance ticket available for the connection.

Take Liverpool to Reading, for example.
There is usually plenty of availability of cheap Advance fares between Liverpool and Birmingham, but much less between Birmingham & Reading.
Hence, when you buy an Advance ticket, you are paying for a higher-tier advance ticket (XC & connections), which also involves a relatively high charge for the '& connections' part.

On Tuesday (as an example, but it's usually like this), it's £41.50 for a through ticket (XC & connections).
The XC part from Birmingham to Reading is £23.90 if booked separately, and the London Midland part to Birmingham is £9.

 

[kieron]

cool, i was using the national rail website and working for tommrow (9/3/14) at around midday and i noticed this because of some col-cardiff journeys i have been looking at, and nearly all the time it has been coming out with anytime. then i broke the route up and i found it was cheaper

Virgin price the "via London" fares there, so the cheapest flexible single is actually an online-only off peak single for £49.60, combined with the cheapest advance you can find the other way (£17.50 according to brfares.com).

Looking at travel tomorrow, there are £31 Colchester-Birmingham tickets tomorrow at 11.30, with £9 tickets on the 14.36 from Birmingham to Liverpool (albeit 50 minutes longer than a typical London itinerary). I don't know what would have been available yesterday for today, though.

It's generally better to book Advance tickets further in advance if you can, of course.

 

[yorkie]

so for example if i book a ticket from colchester - liverpool it will be around £98 just an anytime single but if i do it like this
col - lst = £10 (advanced)
lst - eus = £2.20 using oyster
eus - liverpool lime street = £35 looking at the cheapest one (advance)

Clearly the prices you are quoting are for very much off peak travel, in which case the Off Peak Return (£99.20) is going to be appropriate for most people. This is, of course, only restricted on the London <> Liverpool portion of the journey, and is unrestricted between Colchester <> London (unlike your suggested tickets).

As kieron says, you can get an Off Peak Single for half the cost of a return, if booking as part of a return journey with an Advance Single in the other direction, so your comparison isn't really a fair one.

You could leave Colchester at 0742 and get to Liverpool by 1210, and return from Liverpool in the afternoon and depart from Liverpool St during the evening peak, all for £99.20 return. Try doing that on "split" tickets, and it will cost more! Greater Anglia want you to pay £55.40 if doing the Colchester <> London return alone at those times, if not returning the same day, and that's very much the minority of the overall trip.

 

[mrredrunner100]

i was looking at advance single and in no way at all returns, and i was looking at off peak times. and in the example i used, they were the prices on the national rail website at the time and like i said i have found this with other routes as well, such as colchester - cardiff and other places

 

[yorkie]

i was looking at advance single and in no way at all returns

Evidently, yes.

and i was looking at off peak times

Yes, but the Off Peak Return is valid at times which would, for some parts of the journey, be considered "peak" if booked separately, making it better value and far more flexible.

and in the example i used, they were the prices on the national rail website at the time

Yes, though you haven't said what times those prices were for. They're not possible for travelling at many convenient times at which the Off Peak Return is valid.

and like i said i have found this with other routes as well, such as colchester - cardiff and other places

It's possible that "Split ticketing" can be cheaper for almost any journey, but for Colchester - Ipswich or Colchester - Cardiff I would check out the through fares first. You also need to be careful to ensure you have left sufficient interchange between London termini, adhering to the minimum connection times for London Underground cross-London transfers )

 

[mrredrunner100]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrredrunner100 View Post
and in the example i used, they were the prices on the national rail website at the time

Originally Posted by yorkie
Yes, though you haven't said what times those prices were for. They're not possible for travelling at many convenient times at which the Off Peak Return is valid.

i will edit them in to the original post in a few minutes

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrredrunner100 View Post
and like i said i have found this with other routes as well, such as colchester - cardiff and other places

Originally Posted by yorkie
It's possible that "Split ticketing" can be cheaper for almost any journey, but for Colchester - Ipswich or Colchester - Cardiff I would check out the through fares first. You also need to be careful to ensure you have left sufficient interchange between London termini, adhering to the minimum connection times for London Underground cross-London transfers )

1) i would check through fares first anyway its sort of routine thats what i do (and what most people would do to be honest)
2) i ALWAYS allow enough time to transfer through london, its not hard to do i usually leave about an hour or more for majourity of connections or more if it fits....i do the tube challenge and things so i am used to timetabling and leaving enough time and stuff, so no need to pick me out on that and i have allowed that in the example
3)i can attach the spreadsheet that i use to work it out if you want me to

so your comparison isn't really a fair one.

i dont really see/understand your point because i have just used one example but i have found others to back up my findings, this did take me a while to work it all out....just saying.......because the way i see it, it is fair because its a genuine route.

im not stupid with this stuff, which is what some of your posts are insinuating, the way i see it

in fact here's the spreadsheet, that is working on times for tommrow 10/3/14 departing at 12:03 and data has been sourced off national rail enquiries website

 

[yorkie]

For the benefit of people who can't open Excel documents, that spreadsheet is comparing the cost of a fully flexible £98.20 single ticket (a return is £1 more!) with Advance fares for:

• Colchester-London (£13; Std class),
• Oyster PAYG (£2.20) and
• Euston - Liverpool (£68.50; 1st class), d

Departing at 1203 & arriving at 1610, (it actually says 1810 but that's a typo), totalling £83.70.

For some unknown reason, Advance fares are not available for that through journey opportunity at that time. However an Advance fare is available for the through journey one hour earlier, at a cost of £73.50 (1st class throughout).

So yes, for someone going one-way on that particular journey, who cannot depart one hour earlier, would be better off "splitting" on this particular occasion.

 

[mrredrunner100]

For the benefit of people who can't open Excel documents, that spreadsheet is comparing the cost of a fully flexible £98.20 single ticket (a return is £1 more!) with Advance fares for:

• Colchester-London (£13; Std class),
• Oyster PAYG (£2.20) and
• Euston - Liverpool (£68.50; 1st class), d

Departing at 1203 & arriving at 1610, (it actually says 1810 but that's a typo), totalling £83.70.

For some unknown reason, Advance fares are not available for that through journey opportunity at that time. However an Advance fare is available for the through journey one hour earlier, at a cost of £73.50 (1st class throughout).

So yes, for someone going one-way on that particular journey, who cannot depart one hour earlier, would be better off "splitting" on this particular occasion.

again i am working on SINGLES not returns although it maybe only £1 more but i am working on singles

So yes, for someone going one-way on that particular journey, who cannot depart one hour earlier, would be better off "splitting" on this particular occasion.

1)i did spot that but i thought for the example it would be fairer if i chose the same time
2) heres another; this time to cardiff

 

[mrredrunner100]

this is the file

 

[Hadders]

You don't appear to have left sufficient time to transfer between Liverpool Street and Paddington, if I'm reading your spreadsheet correctly.

You have to allow 55 minutes when travelling between these stations in order to be covered int he event of delays. Your example has an arrival time into LST of 1331 and a departure from Paddington of 1415 which is only 44 minutes.

I'm sure that a seasoned traveller would be able to do the transfer in 44 minutes, if the train into LST arrives on time but you won't be covered for travel on a later train from Paddington in the event of a delay.

 

[mrredrunner100]

You don't appear to have left sufficient time to transfer between Liverpool Street and Paddington, if I'm reading your spreadsheet correctly.

You have to allow 55 minutes when travelling between these stations in order to be covered int he event of delays. Your example has an arrival time into LST of 1331 and a departure from Paddington of 1415 which is only 44 minutes.

I'm sure that a seasoned traveller would be able to do the transfer in 44 minutes, if the train into LST arrives on time but you won't be covered for travel on a later train from Paddington in the event of a delay.

44 minutes is enough even to allow for delay, because the route if going direct on circle, hammer and met lines show that the route is 20 minutes direct, allowing 5 - 8 minutes to change between mainline to underground (accounting for both ends so 3 ish minutes at lst, and 4 ish at pad) then that adds up to 25 minutes, to do the whole underground section, thus giving an extra 20 (19 if your picky) minutes to allow for any delays.

also i have missed a booked train before and they have put me on the next train because it was due to circumstances out of my control however thats another story

 

[bb21]

In your case it may not matter as you are using a walk-on ticket for the leg from Paddington onwards. However if this leg is also making use of an Advance fare, your itinerary would not be valid so you will not be covered in the event of the first leg being severely delayed causing you to miss your train from Paddington, in which case you would need to buy a new ticket.

 

[Hadders]

I'm sorry but you are incorrect.

You have to allow sufficient time for a cross London transfer as per the table which appears in the National Rail Timetable. You can choose to allow less time but if your connection (out of Paddington in your example) was an Advance then you wouldn't be covered in the event of a delay (clearly in your case the staff chose to show discretion but this is not an entitlement).

Further details can be seen in the forum's Fares and Ticketing Guide:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1315636

 

[maniacmartin]

44 minutes is enough even to allow for delay, because the route if going direct on circle, hammer and met lines show that the route is 20 minutes direct, allowing 5 - 8 minutes to change between mainline to underground (accounting for both ends so 3 ish minutes at lst, and 4 ish at pad) then that adds up to 25 minutes, to do the whole underground section, thus giving an extra 20 (19 if your picky) minutes to allow for any delays.

I'm afraid that what you or I think is enough time isn't necessarily what the rail industry thinks is enough time to allow. If you don't allow the times in the National Rail timetable, then you might not be conveyed if you miss your second train due to an earlier delay.

 

[yorkie]

.... You also need to be careful to ensure you have left sufficient interchange between London termini, adhering to the minimum connection times for London Underground cross-London transfers )

2) i ALWAYS allow enough time to transfer through london, its not hard to do i usually leave about an hour or more for majourity of connections or more if it fits....i do the tube challenge and things so i am used to timetabling and leaving enough time and stuff, so no need to pick me out on that and i have allowed that in the example...

...im not stupid with this stuff, which is what some of your posts are insinuating, the way i see it...

I'm not accusing you of being "stupid" at all. However, if you do not follow the official minimum connection times, the itinerary isn't considered a valid itinerary by the rail industry.

That may not matter, in some cases, depending on the ticketing arrangements.

Someone who isn't interested in claiming delay compensation, and has fully flexible tickets, and isn't connecting into the final service of the day, doesn't need to concern themselves with minimum connection times for example.

But in your first example, Advance fares were being suggested, which makes adhering to minimum connection times crucially important.

44 minutes is enough even to allow for delay, because the route if going direct on circle, hammer and met lines show that the route is 20 minutes direct, allowing 5 - 8 minutes to change between mainline to underground (accounting for both ends so 3 ish minutes at lst, and 4 ish at pad) then that adds up to 25 minutes, to do the whole underground section, thus giving an extra 20 (19 if your picky) minutes to allow for any delays.

also i have missed a booked train before and they have put me on the next train because it was due to circumstances out of my control however thats another story

They do not have to let you travel on the next train, if you did not allow the official minimum interchange times, and if your ticket would otherwise not be valid on the next service.

If you allow the minimum interchange time, then they do have to let you travel on the next train.

In practice, someone who allows just under the minimum time, is likely to be shown discretion, but that cannot be guaranteed.

 

[kieron]

As kieron says, you can get an Off Peak Single for half the cost of a return, if booking as part of a return journey with an Advance Single in the other direction, so your comparison isn't really a fair one.

Unfair seems like a rather strong word to me. I'm sure lots of off-peak singles are sold for Virgin-priced flows, despite the fact that there are few situations where they are the most appropriate ticket (basically, where you can't buy your ticket using a suitable web site for one reason or another).

I know this, but I wouldn't expect someone else to do so (particularly as the cheaper ticket isn't, to my knowledge, promoted to people in that situation by any retailer). You can only post based on what you know.