New Build Units With Longitudinal Seating

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone.

Given that in the next 10 years we are going to require a lot of new build DMU's / EMU's I think it would be a good idea to incorporate longitudinal seating into a three car unit. My idea would be to split the centre car half and half with class 378 type seating.

On commuter routes the longitudinal seating would help to boost capacity. And on other routes / off peak travel the additional space could be used for bicycles / Pushchairs and backpacks.

Your thoughts would be very welcome!

Richmond Commuter!

 

[Haydn1971]

Alternatively - just put enough carriages on and let everyone sit. Why should I pay full price for a ticket then have to stand point to point - I see this solution works well on the Overground for very specific reasons, driving down costs associated with platform lengthening.

 

[prod_pep]

It works on the Overground because most of the journeys made by passengers are very short. It is simply not acceptable to provide such a tiny number of extremely uncomfortable seats like the 378s on journeys where people are likely to be on the train for 30 minutes or more.

 

[colchesterken]

I think the best part about a train ride is that you can sit and watch the world go by. which cannot be done while driving
I hate moden trains where there are limited seats and you just get to look at the person on the other side

 

[Nym]

It works on the Overground because most of the journeys made by passengers are very short. It is simply not acceptable to provide such a tiny number of extremely uncomfortable seats like the 378s on journeys where people are likely to be on the train for 30 minutes or more.

You mean like Carpenters Park to Euston?

 

[hassaanhc]

I think the best part about a train ride is that you can sit and watch the world go by. which cannot be done while driving
I hate moden trains where there are limited seats and you just get to look at the person on the other side

Even worse is having a massive window pillar as your view :/

 

[47802]

No big fan of the 378 seating arrangement I would have liked to have seen a compromise 'S' stock S8 arrangement for at least some parts of each coach, but I suppose if they really get that full, I have to say on the few occasions I have been on the overground even at peak times I wouldn't have described it as rammed, I have seen busier trans pennine services.

 

[prod_pep]

You mean like Carpenters Park to Euston?

How many people actually make that journey compared with much shorter journeys starting or ending at Wembley and Willesden? Not a great proportion of the train, I shouldn't wonder.

 

[RichmondCommu]

How many people actually make that journey compared with much shorter journeys starting or ending at Wembley and Willesden? Not a great proportion of the train, I shouldn't wonder.

Don't forget that class 378's also run along the ELR to south of the river. Some of those journeys can be quite lengthy and of course along the NLL.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It works on the Overground because most of the journeys made by passengers are very short. It is simply not acceptable to provide such a tiny number of extremely uncomfortable seats like the 378s on journeys where people are likely to be on the train for 30 minutes or more.

Are you suggesting that commuters outside of the SE are not already forced stand during their commute? Or that customers are not left behind because they simply can't get on?

In all fairness my idea is to have three car units with half of the centre car having longitudinal seating. In other words the seating is not the same throughout the train. With the increased capacity the chances of people being left behind diminish.

There is no reason why these trains could not be introduced in the SW and would be perfect on the Cornwall branch lines. No restrictions on surf boards when you have all that space!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Alternatively - just put enough carriages on and let everyone sit. Why should I pay full price for a ticket then have to stand point to point - I see this solution works well on the Overground for very specific reasons, driving down costs associated with platform lengthening.

In all fairness rolling stock provision and associated infrastructure is as much cost driven in the North as it is in the South East! No TOC could ever afford to have enough rolling stock so that no commuter ever had to stand for at least part of their journey.

It's worth mentioning here that the mighty GWR constructed rolling stock with longitudinal seating. Indeed at least vehicle has survived to tell the tale on the SVR.

 

[prod_pep]

Are you suggesting that commuters outside of the SE are not already forced stand during their commute? Or that customers are not left behind because they simply can't get on?

In all fairness my idea is to have three car units with half of the centre car having longitudinal seating. In other words the seating is not the same throughout the train. With the increased capacity the chances of people being left behind diminish.

I've seen both of those things happen on my local route, but introducing longitudinal seating is hardly the answer. What about more carriages, more frequently? Then there is the issue of off-peak times, where passengers travelling at this time would be forced to stand (more than they are already) due to complete lack of seating.

Having half of a single car with longitudinal seating is one thing and might be beneficial in places (although it wouldn't permit a great deal more capacity). Introduce units styled like the 378s on a route around here and there would be fury. We're passengers, not cattle.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I've seen both of those things happen on my local route, but introducing longitudinal seating is hardly the answer. What about more carriages, more frequently? Then there is the issue of off-peak times, where passengers travelling at this time would be forced to stand (more than they are already) due to complete lack of seating.

The problem is extra rolling stock costs money which will be in short supply for sometime whilst the Government concentrates on reducing the deficit. Please remember that I'm already suggesting three car (full length) units which would certainly be an improvement on what we currently have.

I'm not sure why you think off-peak travel would be such an issue. Not only am I suggesting longer trains but off-peak tends to be much quieter than peak time travel. Not only that but my idea would be much more off-peak friendly in terms of Pushchairs etc.

Having half of a single car with longitudinal seating is one thing and might be beneficial in places (although it wouldn't permit a great deal more capacity). Introduce units styled like the 378s on a route around here and there would be fury. We're passengers, not cattle.

In all fairness I'm not suggesting that we introduce class 378's away from their current routes. All I'm suggesting is a mixture which is still weighted heavily in favor of traditional seating.

 

[GatwickDepress]

SWT 455s have a small proportion of longitudinal seating, were you thinking of something like this?


By Matthew Black.

 

[RichmondCommu]

SWT 455s have a small proportion of longitudinal seating, were you thinking of something like this?


By Matthew Black.

Yes! In fact I should have mentioned the class 455's in the first place although my idea would have slightly longer longitudinal seating. Many thanks for posting this picture!

 

[prod_pep]

I'm not sure why you think off-peak travel would be such an issue. Not only am I suggesting longer trains but off-peak tends to be much quieter than peak time travel. Not only that but my idea would be much more off-peak friendly in terms of Pushchairs etc.

Around my way it would be a significant issue. You struggle badly to get a seat on a Liverpool-bound Southport line train from the end of peak hour to near enough noon. A similar situation exists on other routes like the Ormskirk line. Off-peak times on Merseyside are often quite busy.

I'm afraid I just can't see a 3 car train with a small section of one carriage converted to longitudinal seating solving many capacity problems.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Around my way it would be a significant issue. You struggle badly to get a seat on a Liverpool-bound Southport line train from the end of peak hour to near enough noon. A similar situation exists on other routes like the Ormskirk line. Off-peak times on Merseyside are often quite busy.

I'm afraid I just can't see a 3 car train with a small section of one carriage converted to longitudinal seating solving many capacity problems.

Are the trains full all the way from Southport? Or do they tend to fill up as you get closer to the city centre? Would my idea not help parents with Pushchairs? In my experience they tend to use off-peak services.

 

[samuelmorris]

No big fan of the 378 seating arrangement I would have liked to have seen a compromise 'S' stock S8 arrangement for at least some parts of each coach, but I suppose if they really get that full, I have to say on the few occasions I have been on the overground even at peak times I wouldn't have described it as rammed, I have seen busier trans pennine services.

The North London line through Hackney is, as far as I can tell, fully loaded every day, leaving a fair proportion of a train behind at multiple stations due to being full to capacity.

 

[prod_pep]

Are the trains full all the way from Southport? Or do they tend to fill up as you get closer to the city centre? Would my idea not help parents with Pushchairs? In my experience they tend to use off-peak services.

It usually gets full from around Waterloo onwards, which is approximately the half-way point of the route in terms of stations. Luckily Merseyrail trains have both wheelchair and cycle spaces in each driving carriage, so these are normally used by parents with pushchairs. For trains which lack flexible spaces (the 314s in Glasgow spring to mind as one example), longitudinal seating would be one way to help fit prams on.

The arrangement on that 455 isn't bad, but the concern I have is just how many extra people does it permit?

 

[RichmondCommu]

It usually gets full from around Waterloo onwards, which is approximately the half-way point of the route in terms of stations. Luckily Merseyrail trains have both wheelchair and cycle spaces in each driving carriage, so these are normally used by parents with pushchairs. For trains which lack flexible spaces (the 314s in Glasgow spring to mind as one example), longitudinal seating would be one way to help fit prams on.

The arrangement on that 455 isn't bad, but the concern I have is just how many extra people does it permit?

I don't have the figures for the 455's even as a rough estimate as I don't tend to travel on them even though I live in SWT land! However I think it would be fair to say that longitudinal seating would see at the very least a small capacity increase. Surely this can't be a bad thing? In my personal experience people will accept having to stand but being left behind is a different matter!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You mean like Carpenters Park to Euston?

[pedant] It's Carpender's Park... [/pedant]

 

[SF-02]

In 10 years time I do see it being more common around some major cities. Maximum lengths will be reached (often 12 cars) first and then once that fills up seat arrangements will change. I'm thinking c2c, southeastern etc.

 

[bronzeonion]

I think fully longitudinal seating definitely should be something that should be considered for a new build commuter unit. More importantly you'll need more than 2 doorways per side for it work properly too.

A service like the Great Northern local out of Moorgate/Kings Cross would be ideal as you have a faster more limited stop service that runs alongside that as well so you don't have the problem of people standing for too long either.

 

[transmanche]

I think fully longitudinal seating definitely should be something that should be considered for a new build commuter unit. More importantly you'll need more than 2 doorways per side for it work properly too.

Sounds like an LU S stock!

 

[bronzeonion]

Sounds like an LU S stock!

I meant a train not some cheap tram/bus crossbreed crap!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I meant a train not some cheap tram/bus crossbreed crap!

Now where in the north of England would this so eloquently stated description also seem to fit a certain mode of rail transportation "like a glove", so to speak..

 

[bronzeonion]

Now where in the north of England would this so eloquently stated description also seem to fit a certain mode of rail transportation "like a glove", so to speak..

Hahahahahaha

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think fully longitudinal seating definitely should be something that should be considered for a new build commuter unit. More importantly you'll need more than 2 doorways per side for it work properly too.

A service like the Great Northern local out of Moorgate/Kings Cross would be ideal as you have a faster more limited stop service that runs alongside that as well so you don't have the problem of people standing for too long either.

I concur with much of what you're proposing but I still think a range of seating is required as some Moorgate services run as far as Stevenage. I accept that passengers can change at Finsbury Park but this is not always ideal. I think GEML inner suburban routes could also benefit from longitundinal seating.

 

[transmanche]

I think GEML inner suburban routes could also benefit from longitundinal seating.

They're getting the Class 345s aren't they?

 

[RichmondCommu]

They're getting the Class 345s aren't they?

Good point well made! In which case one would assume that they too will have a mixture of seating types, especially given that they will operate through Central London.

My point is though that three car sets with partial longitudinal seating should be pretty much go anywhere. In other words the St Ives branch or the East Lancs route.

 

[transmanche]

My point is though that three car sets with partial longitudinal seating should be pretty much go anywhere. In other words the St Ives branch or the East Lancs route.

I think that some passengers may actually prefer longitudinal seating - especially those who have mobility problems - as it can be easier to get to and sit down on a seat facing sideways.

Well that's what I've noticed when travelling on the tube and on 378s.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Yes! In fact I should have mentioned the class 455's in the first place although my idea would have slightly longer longitudinal seating. Many thanks for posting this picture!

Thank Mr. Black for the picture, well I did post it but still, my pleasure! :P

I think that some passengers may actually prefer longitudinal seating - especially those who have mobility problems - as it can be easier to get to and sit down on a seat facing sideways.

Well that's what I've noticed when travelling on the tube and on 378s.

The Class 319s (at least, some of them?) have longitudinal seating as well. I've noticed people with mobility issues tend to use them more than conventional seats, as do people travelling with children and pushchairs, and people only travelling one or two stops.

Interestingly, people with large items of luggage also preferred using them. I suspect there could be a couple of reasons for that: easy to get out - no navigating 3+2 seating with a heavy suitcase - and security - their stuff is right in front of them the whole time!