Daily Mail: train cancelled whilst guard is in sainsburys...

[hassaanhc]

I find the public comments more frightening than the actual article. It is hard to believe that barely two and a half years after the Georgia Varley incident some ignoramus can make a comment like:



Incredible people have so little idea of what a guard's job entails.

The worst one was along the lines of what is "safety crytical" (sic) about checking tickets :roll: luckily he was put in his place

 

[Tomnick]

Despite what many clearly think, there is quite a bit of flexibility around the timing of breaks. In this case, though, the report suggests that the guard's PNB had already been delayed by disruption, so it seems unreasonable to expect him, probably tired and hungry, to take a train out on a fairly long journey and delay his break for a further couple of hours. I'd rather be (relatively) slightly inconvenienced than have my safety put at risk!

 

[Oswyntail]

I find the public comments more frightening than the actual article. It is hard to believe that barely two and a half years after the Georgia Varley incident some ignoramus can make a comment like:
Incredible that people have so little idea of what a guard's job entails.

Well, actually, it isn't. I don't know what job you do, but do you actually know what is entailed in being a: nurse; policeman; shopkeeper; civil servant; banker? Probably not, but you have some pre-formed idea, that will be vaguely accurate. Like the ideas you found here. If guards want the general public to have any idea how critical their job is, then it is them, their employers or their union that has to explain.

 

[A-driver]

There is flexibity allowed in breaks but when diagrams are so tight it's not always possible. The guard may have been able to work that train and take their break elsewhere but that would cause another train to be delayed when he then took a break.

There are other regulations to consider. I don't know specifically for guards but for drivers we can only spend so long (normally around 5hours) driving before we must take a break. We also have many diagrams which only have a 30min window in them to have that break so if I drive for 4hours57 mins and am late for my break before driving another 4hours then I must legally take that 30min break. If, on the other hand, I spend 3 hours driving, was meant to have a break and then spend another hour driving, then wait an hour for my next working then of course I could have my break moved.

And as for the comments on here 'why was he in sainsburys, that's not exactly a break...' Well I normally spend the first part of my break in a shop buying food to eat on said break... A break dosnt mean you have to lie down in a dark room sleeping, it's a break from sitting in a driving cab or being on a train. What you spend your break doing is entirely up to you and no one else's business (not even your employers). I have spent many breaks shopping at certain locations.

If also point out that despite what people think of the regulations, they are what they are and it's not down to an individual guard to ignore them to prevent inconveniencing any passengers. If the guard ignored the rules and carried on working they are leaving themselves very much exposed if auditors find out or if they are involved in an incident. I don't think it's fair at all to expect anyone to leave themselves that vulnerable in any job.

 

[A-driver]

Also, there are rules in medicine and aviation around fatigue and working hours so that post was wrong. Ok doctors don't sit there on lunch saying 'I can't help anyone for another 20mins' but people like surgeons are only allowed to operate for a certain number of hours etc. and pilots are certainly very strictly regulated in terms of working hours.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Unless things have changed considerably since I worked for South Eastern, then Guards always worked in to London and back out on the same train, as Tonbridge was the closest depot to London (it was Ashford at one time, but that caused no end of problems! No wonder the manager was shunted off to Railtrack!).

 

[LateThanNever]

There is flexibity allowed in breaks but when diagrams are so tight it's not always possible. The guard may have been able to work that train and take their break elsewhere but that would cause another train to be delayed when he then took a break.

There are other regulations to consider. I don't know specifically for guards but for drivers we can only spend so long (normally around 5hours) driving before we must take a break. We also have many diagrams which only have a 30min window in them to have that break so if I drive for 4hours57 mins and am late for my break before driving another 4hours then I must legally take that 30min break. If, on the other hand, I spend 3 hours driving, was meant to have a break and then spend another hour driving, then wait an hour for my next working then of course I could have my break moved.

And as for the comments on here 'why was he in sainsburys, that's not exactly a break...' Well I normally spend the first part of my break in a shop buying food to eat on said break... A break dosnt mean you have to lie down in a dark room sleeping, it's a break from sitting in a driving cab or being on a train. What you spend your break doing is entirely up to you and no one else's business (not even your employers). I have spent many breaks shopping at certain locations.

Sure you have, but in the event of a local crisis the adrenalin - and discretion -should kick in - at the expense of the bloomin' Sainsbury's. It's not as if changing ends isn't a change of scene...

 

[transmanche]

And as for the comments on here 'why was he in sainsburys, that's not exactly a break...' Well I normally spend the first part of my break in a shop buying food to eat on said break... A break dosnt mean you have to lie down in a dark room sleeping, it's a break from sitting in a driving cab or being on a train.

Exactly. My only related experience would be driving a car. After a few hours driving; I like to have a break for a (non-alcoholic!) drink, maybe a bite to eat, nip to the loo and get some fresh air - but it's the being-able-to-lower-my-concentration-levels-simply-by-not-driving which also has a huge benefit.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Exactly what I would expect from The Mail and the reactionary cretins that read it.

Surprised they didn't blame Romanians or Bulgarians.

 

[Llanigraham]

Sure you have, but in the event of a local crisis the adrenalin - and discretion -should kick in - at the expense of the bloomin' Sainsbury's. It's not as if changing ends isn't a change of scene...

Sorry, but the rules about the working hours and rest periods are far more important that some "crisis"! There would be no discretion if something went wrong; it would be a meeting with NO tea and biscuits.

 

[drbdrb]

Is there any flexibility in the railway requirements?

I would take the evasive answers as a conclusive reply.

 

[A-driver]

Sure you have, but in the event of a local crisis the adrenalin - and discretion -should kick in - at the expense of the bloomin' Sainsbury's. It's not as if changing ends isn't a change of scene...

Seriously? And what kind if crisis would your manager accept as defence if you had an incident and they were sacking you for working a train without adequate rest/over your hours?

Late running and disruption are in no way a crisis...

And I find it impossible to believe that you honestly count a 5 min change ends as a sufficient break.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

I would take the evasive answers as a conclusive reply.

Not when it comes to safe hours of working and nor should there be.There's an old railway saying,"The rules are written in blood".

 

[alastair]

I find the public comments more frightening than the actual article. It is hard to believe that barely two and a half years after the Georgia Varley incident some ignoramus can make a comment like:



Incredible that people have so little idea of what a guard's job entails.

Why do you think its "incredible"? Many services are DOO,which surely speaks for itself?

From my personal experience(on the FGW Gatwick/Reading service)all too often they lurk in the back cab,never to emerge, and do not check or sell tickets,as presumably on a line with many unstaffed stations,they are required to do.

My experiences on SWT(mainly on Guildford or Alton to Waterloo services) are a bit more positive. At least they make a friendly announcement and quite often will do a ticket check. As they have an "office" on 450's and 440's they have maintain a level of visibility which is reassuring to passengers.

 

[A-driver]

I would take the evasive answers as a conclusive reply.

If you actually read posts rather than trying to make stupid remarks then you would actually see that there is flexibility in theory. As already said, it depends on how right the diagram is though. If they only allow 30mins in the entire diagram for a 30min LEGALLY REQUIRED break then it must be taken.

 

[LateThanNever]

Seriously? And what kind if crisis would your manager accept as defence if you had an incident and they were sacking you for working a train without adequate rest/over your hours?

Late running and disruption are in no way a crisis...

And I find it impossible to believe that you honestly count a 5 min change ends as a sufficient break.

Dear, dear, you - or perhaps much more importantly your seemingly useless management want to try running your own business or working in social or emergency services. It's called intelligent discretion. None of you is underpaid and I speak as someone with train driving in my family. After all even HGV's have special provisions in an emergency, and they have little signalling and don't run on rails so are generally more demanding/exhausting!
You obviously cannot go on for ever, but should make every effort to get the passenger to the destination in a timely manner - not via Sainsbury's...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not when it comes to safe hours of working and nor should there be.There's an old railway saying,"The rules are written in blood".

Perhaps in the past but since ATW?P this is a bit out of date!

 

[455driver]

Dear, dear, you - or perhaps much more importantly your seemingly useless management want to try running your own business or working in social or emergency services. It's called intelligent discretion.

Intelligent discretion will get you sacked if there is any sort of incident. The first line on the report asks about the hours you have worked and the breaks you have taken leading up to the incident!

None of you is underpaid and I speak as someone with train driving in my family.

Got the dig in about our pay, well done! :roll:

After all even HGV's have special provisions in an emergency, and they have little signalling and don't run on rails so are generally more demanding/exhausting!

So a few commuters being late home for tea is an emergency is it!

The guards break is a legal requirement, the law does allow discretion in an emergency but this certainly wasn't an emergency, no matter how self important the commuters are.

Are you saying that a HGV driver can ignore his legally required break if he is going to be late getting the sprouts to the supermarket on Christmas Eve?
Would that be deemed an emergency?

Can a bus/coach driver go over their limits (I mean the actual limits not just using the discretionary bit) because a few passengers would be late home?

You obviously cannot go on for ever, but should make every effort to get the passenger to the destination in a timely manner - not via Sainsbury's...

As has been mentioned several times (are you <deleted> or being deliberately evasive?) the guards break is a legal requirement, all this talk of moving the break etc is rather mute because a lot of the duties I work only have the one (legally required) break in them. The rest of the time I am driving trains, I sign on work for 3-5 hours, have an hour (could be more or less) and then drive for another 3-5 hours. Where are you going to move the break on that if I am late in for my legally required break and you want me to take the next train out on time?

Now can you explain where exactly you are going to move the break to bearing in mind it is legally required and has to be taken within prescribed parts of the working day!

You talk the talk, its just a pity you dont actually know what you are talking about!

 

[A-driver]

Dear, dear, you - or perhaps much more importantly your seemingly useless management want to try running your own business or working in social or emergency services. It's called intelligent discretion. None of you is underpaid and I speak as someone with train driving in my family. After all even HGV's have special provisions in an emergency, and they have little signalling and don't run on rails so are generally more demanding/exhausting!

You obviously cannot go on for ever, but should make every effort to get the passenger to the destination in a timely manner - not via Sainsbury's...

You are speaking absolute rubbish I'm afraid and show that you don't have a clue what you are talking about!

Causing delays is not a crisis or emergency situation. There is plenty if discretion but put simply you can not go without a break or work over your hours.

Do you honestly think it would be acceptable to force train drivers to drive continuously for 10 hours without any breaks?

As for your comments about changing ends being adequate you really don't have a clue! It takes 5 mins to shut down the cab, walk up the other end of the train and set everything up again. Often you are only given the minimum 5 mins to do this. Absolutely no time to have a wee, make a drink etc. and I can assure you that having changed ends and got the train moving again it didn't feel like you have left the cab environment at all.

And calling changing ends a change if scenery really is silly as by definition it's not...you end up going back over the exact same but if scenery you have just been over!

Sorry to make this argument again but if you havnt driven a train or worked as a guard then you can't say how much of a break people need! After a few hours in the cab concentrating becomes very difficult. You find yourself making silly mistakes, focusing on the wrong things etc. and stepping out of the train for 20-30mins really is essential.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

Dear, dear, you - or perhaps much more importantly your seemingly useless management want to try running your own business or working in social or emergency services. It's called intelligent discretion. None of you is underpaid and I speak as someone with train driving in my family. After all even HGV's have special provisions in an emergency, and they have little signalling and don't run on rails so are generally more demanding/exhausting!
You obviously cannot go on for ever, but should make every effort to get the passenger to the destination in a timely manner - not via Sainsbury's...

If A-driver works through his break and is then involved in an incident the first thing they'll say to him is "It's your responsibility to ensure you have your break" if he claims fatigue is a factor.He would be hung out to dry.

As has been stated the main barrier to flexibility is the amount of work crammed in to modern diagrams.

 

[EM2]

With a username like LateThanNever, you'd think they'd understand the need for safety and adequate rest periods.
Because if staff don't get that rest, then the possibility is that getting to your destination could well be never.

 

[A-driver]

Perhaps in the past but since ATW?P this is a bit out of date!

What on earth are you on about now? What on earth is ATW?P out of interest and how on earth does it affect fatigue and breaks? Do you mean ATP? If so it makes no difference to fatigue, concentration or breaks, it is in no way automation nor dies it take any tasks off of a driver and it's only fitted to 2 lines in the UK...

I'd stop posting if I were you as you don't know what you are on about and are turning the thread rather hostile as I'm sorry but the forum can't expect rail staff to allow false info which attacks us to go unchallenged and you just continuously try to argue points with incorrect or misunderstood infimation!

Have an opinion by all means but don't try backing that opinion up with facts unless you are sure those facts are actually correct!

 

[LateThanNever]

If A-driver works through his break and is then involved in an incident the first thing they'll say to him is "It's your responsibility to ensure you have your break" if he claims fatigue is a factor.He would be hung out to dry.

As has been stated the main barrier to flexibility is the amount of work crammed in to modern diagrams.

The management must take responsibility for their decisions. If they employ proper staff then they know that they are capable of making decisions for themselves and would support that. If they do not, then it is they who would? - certainly should - be hung out to dry. Really we should ensure EVERYONE makes their own minds up and holds themselves responsible. We are not the Daily Mail -we are actually responsible!! If the management cannot see that then they shouldn't be management. I have unequivocally supported staff in challenging circs but told them I disagree. But if you employ them for the job then that's the way the cookie has to crumble. The management must take the rap for any incident - that's their job!

 

[petersi]

Comparing the regulations with regard to HGV drivers is also wide of the mark. Used to work in the industry and these were regulations imposed by the EU - in spite of the fact that the UK had a better accident record than every single member of the EU at the time. They are also even now realistically unenforceable without lots of discretion, which the UK police are generally good at - unless you choose to upset them!

They are now quite tightly enforced modern tachos are digital and the data is uploaded to the relevant authorities. If there are constant violations they are highlight.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[LateThanNever]

What on earth are you on about now? What on earth is ATW?P out of interest and how on earth does it affect fatigue and breaks? Do you mean ATP? If so it makes no difference to fatigue, concentration or breaks, it is in no way automation nor dies it take any tasks off of a driver and it's only fitted to 2 lines in the UK...

I'd stop posting if I were you as you don't know what you are on about and are turning the thread rather hostile as I'm sorry but the forum can't expect rail staff to allow false info which attacks us to go unchallenged and you just continuously try to argue points with incorrect or misunderstood infimation!

Have an opinion by all means but don't try backing that opinion up with facts unless you are sure those facts are actually correct!

So you only want employees or experts? Passengers are, I take it, of no consequence?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They are now quite tightly enforced modern tachos are digital and the data is uploaded to the relevant authorities. If there are constant violations they are highlight.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Quite ,but there is discretion...

 

[A-driver]

The management must take responsibility for their decisions. If they employ proper staff then they know that they are capable of making decisions for themselves and would support that. If they do not, then it is they who would? - certainly should - be hung out to dry. Really we should ensure EVERYONE makes their own minds up and holds themselves responsible. We are not the Daily Mail -we are actually responsible!! If the management cannot see that then they shouldn't be management. I have unequivocally supported staff in challenging circs but told them I disagree. But if you employ them for the job then that's the way the cookie has to crumble. The management must take the rap for any incident - that's their job!

Please, please, please stop posting, you are talking such a load of rubbish that you may aswell post in another language!

Clearly you are trying to argue something you don't understand at any level and it's really dragging the rest of the thread down.

 

[EM2]

. But if you employ them for the job then that's the way the cookie has to crumble. The management must take the rap for any incident - that's their job!

If you employ them for the job, then you employ them to follow the rules of that job. And those rules include taking a mandatory rest break, within specific parameters, which for example in my role, is between the third and fifth hours of an eight-hour shift.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

The management must take responsibility for their decisions. If they employ proper staff then they know that they are capable of making decisions for themselves and would support that. If they do not, then it is they who would? - certainly should - be hung out to dry. Really we should ensure EVERYONE makes their own minds up and holds themselves responsible. We are not the Daily Mail -we are actually responsible!! If the management cannot see that then they shouldn't be management. I have unequivocally supported staff in challenging circs but told them I disagree. But if you employ them for the job then that's the way the cookie has to crumble. The management must take the rap for any incident - that's their job!

The driver or guard is obliged to take his/her break by law.

 

[David Barrett]

Be careful what you wish for perhaps; had this sort of incident been reported just over twenty years ago by that very august and widely read journal the solution would have been seen as erm...................privatisation.

 

[EM2]

Veuillez m'excuser de vous avez tellement endommagé mais une réponse raisonnée serait beaucoup plus instructive.

You've had plenty of reasoned answers, from those that do the job day in, day out.

 

[LateThanNever]

The driver or guard is obliged to take his/her break by law.

Of course, but there should be discretion in order to give the best possible service to those who pay them for that service - that is both the taxpayer who has made the law (but I doubt with strict liability- so allowing discretion- and the passenger who desires solely to get to their destination in the most expeditious and timely way possible for the fare.