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Passenger dragged by scarf in train door at Holborn

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swt_passenger

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RAIB just sent out this brief:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/140203_holborn_station.cfm

...At this point a passenger arrived on the platform and moved towards the train, stopping as she realised that the doors were closing. As she stopped, the end of the scarf that she was wearing continued to swing towards the train and became trapped between the closing doors.

Lucky she eventually released the scarf. Is it me, or do more and more people tend to wear scarves in such a way that prevents them being easily pulled off?
 
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jon0844

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I always wear a scarf just thrown around the neck loosely, as it enables it to be pulled off quickly (such as if someone grabbed me, unlikely as that is) but it does also mean having to adjust it regularly.

I can therefore see why people do the fold/pull technique to keep it secure, even with the danger that I doubt many people think of.

I saw a rucksack caught once. The owner got free (again, this is why you have bags with velcro for staff) but the bag was held tight and took off along the platform and into the tunnel. This was at Old Street, and I wonder if it made it all the way to Angel...
 

user15681

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When entering a station, I'll tuck my scarf into my coat or jacket, for the reason that the winds as trains arrive and depart can be very strong sometimes and I wouldn't want it to fly off etc. and for the reason above, to reduce any loose items likely to get caught.
 
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Reminds me of the story about the young lad whose buttons on his coat got caught in the doors of a train and got dragged and killed by it, frightening stuff.

On a slightly related note, does anyone else have a bit of fear when people are standing so close to the platform edge when the train is arriving? I wouldn't stand there for two reasons, one, what if I tripped or fell into/in front of the train and two, what if someone pushed me?
 

bb21

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On a slightly related note, does anyone else have a bit of fear when people are standing so close to the platform edge when the train is arriving? I wouldn't stand there for two reasons, one, what if I tripped or fell into/in front of the train and two, what if someone pushed me?

I do, and if I see anyone in such a situation when the station is not busy, they will get shouted at, for their own safety.

Some people are oblivious to the dangers lurking around. :roll:
 

hassaanhc

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I remember seeing an instance on a bus travelling between stops where the person was inside but his whole rucksack was outside the doors and the doors had closed on the gap between himself and the bag. The driver didn't even make an attempt to open the doors to free the bag.
 

jnjkerbin

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The Apprentice said:
On a slightly related note, does anyone else have a bit of fear when people are standing so close to the platform edge when the train is arriving?
The other day I had a person standing the wrong side of the yellow line, standing on one leg, with a large rucksack, trying to sort something out with her shoe as a train was arriving.
 
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paddington

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I remember seeing an instance on a bus travelling between stops where the person was inside but his whole rucksack was outside the doors and the doors had closed on the gap between himself and the bag. The driver didn't even make an attempt to open the doors to free the bag.

That nearly happened to me once; I pressed the button to open the doors, driver didn't even notice the doors opened (should they be able to open after the bus has started moving?)
 

bb21

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You pressed the button? The emergency release button I assume? As a passenger?
 

7griffinjack

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Reminds me of the story about the young lad whose buttons on his coat got caught in the doors of a train and got dragged and killed by it, frightening stuff.

That happened at Holborn too!

"On 21 October 1997, a 9-year-old boy, Ajit Singh was dragged to his death when a toggle on his anorak was trapped in the closing doors of a Piccadilly line train at Holborn Underground Station."
 
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That happened at Holborn too!

"On 21 October 1997, a 9-year-old boy, Ajit Singh was dragged to his death when a toggle on his anorak was trapped in the closing doors of a Piccadilly line train at Holborn Underground Station."

What a coincidence. I was only 6 at the time strangely yet I remember it, unless there was a similar incident. There are so many dangers on the railway, it only takes a second of complacency for a big accident to occur, be it passengers or workers.

The other day I had a person standing the wrong side of the yellow line, standing on one leg, with a large rucksack, trying to sort something out with her shoe as a train was arriving.

Shocking, how can someone be that oblivious to such an obvious and potentially fatal hazard. I doubt it is in the slightest a rare occurrence either.
 
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edwin_m

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What a coincidence. I was only 6 at the time strangely yet I remember it, unless there was a similar incident. There are so many dangers on the railway, it only takes a second of complacency for a big accident to occur, be it passengers or workers.



Shocking, how can someone be that oblivious to such an obvious and potentially fatal hazard. I doubt it is in the slightest a rare occurrence either.

But just to put this into perspective, the actual rate of accidents and fatalities is much lower on the railways than on the roads, even taking into account the much greater amount of travel that takes place by road. This is partly because incidents of this type will receive detailed investigation from RAIB and others.
 
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But just to put this into perspective, the actual rate of accidents and fatalities is much lower on the railways than on the roads, even taking into account the much greater amount of travel that takes place by road. This is partly because incidents of this type will receive detailed investigation from RAIB and others.

I think this is also because, by and large, an accident on the railway is between an individual and the predictable (yet dangerous) environment. Road accidents generally seem to be when two or more individuals are not concentrating at precisely the same time, which can create a very random and devastating event. You can't get away with not concentrating when something as random as people are concerned. Perhaps on the railway you could say there is more lenience to 'switch off' at times.

Though I'm not talking about working on the rail. Switch off at your peril...
 

yorksrob

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You don't know what could get caught up in these sliding doors.

I felt a lot safer with slam doors personally. At least it was up to you what you shut in and when.
 

ModernRailways

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I think I've posted this on here before, but the Metro was delayed and the next train wasn't for 35 minutes - it was icy, snowy and I'd already been waiting 10 minutes. The platform was rammed with people and I was towards the back of the people. The train arrives and people get on, there is no more space so I move down the train and eventually I find a small gap that I could fit into. I knew my coat was fairly baggy so I pulled it round as the doors closed, but someone moved and nudged me causing me to drop my coat and the inevitable happened. I managed to get my coat stuck in the door. I ended up standing there trying to look ever so normal with my hands behind my back, trying to pry it out from the tiny gap in the doors, if I hadn't of tried to set it free I would have had to stand at those doors all the way through to South Shields (for anyone that knows the Metro I boarded at Pelaw and wanted to go to Jarrow). Whilst not very serious, it was rather embarrassing and I was fairly worried about it!
 

GatwickDepress

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You don't know what could get caught up in these sliding doors.

I felt a lot safer with slam doors personally. At least it was up to you what you shut in and when.
I feel a lot safer with automatic doors, the passenger alarms mean there's no excuse for not alerting the train crew should you feel you're at risk with something in the doors.

Plus with automatic doors, you don't get people doing this; it's also one of the goriest news articles I've read in the Hastings Observer.

Hastings Observer said:
"Mr Salmon stood up and went out of the carriage. He lent out and tried to pull his arm around to close it.

"He had to pull it around against the direction of travel. It bounced back hitting the side of the carriage with some force.

"The deceased then lent out for a second attempt. As he pulled it towards him he was struck by a train travelling in the opposite direction.

"He was thrown out and received fatal injuries. Some considerable damage was also caused to both trains.

"The other group were covered in blood and in some cases pieces of flesh which had scattered all over the carriageway."
 

transmanche

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I ended up standing there trying to look ever so normal with my hands behind my back, trying to pry it out from the tiny gap in the doors, if I hadn't of tried to set it free I would have had to stand at those doors all the way through to South Shields (for anyone that knows the Metro I boarded at Pelaw and wanted to go to Jarrow). Whilst not very serious, it was rather embarrassing and I was fairly worried about it!

I feel a lot safer with automatic doors, the passenger alarms mean there's no excuse for not alerting the train crew should you feel you're at risk with something in the doors.
I know you weren't responding to ModernRailways's post, but one oddity about the T&W Metro is that if you actually got stuck in the door (and were unable to extricate yourself from the garment), you wouldn't be able to reach the passenger alarm.

You can see the red alarm button at the top of the pole - which is located in the centre of the vestibule. You'd also be struggling to reach it if you're much shorter than 6'.

360px-Interior_of_Tyne_and_Wear_Metro_train_at_St_James.jpg
 

jon0844

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Wow. No way they'd be allowed now, without lower ones at least, surely? Grandfather rights I assume.

Lifts now have alarm buttons almost down on the floor, and new stock has lower level alarm buttons near the wheelchair areas. In both cases, kids can reach them but it's obviously still considered to be important.
 

ModernRailways

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Wow. No way they'd be allowed now, without lower ones at least, surely? Grandfather rights I assume.

Lifts now have alarm buttons almost down on the floor, and new stock has lower level alarm buttons near the wheelchair areas. In both cases, kids can reach them but it's obviously still considered to be important.

They're in the process of being refurbished and we still have that one, but we have a new disability alarm in a new disabled bay which is still too far from the doors.

It should also be noted that none of these are passenger alarms as such, the one on the centre pole activates the emergency brakes, and the new disabled button sets off a silent alarm to the driver who has to walk along the train to see what the problem is. You aren't able to actually talk to train crew! There is a green (now white) panel next to the doors which is just visible to the right of the image posted by 'transmanche' which lets you open the doors but even that is too far away from a passenger stuck in the doors and (as mentioned in an RAIB report) they are impossible to move because they aren't used or maintained properly.

I'll see if I can find an image of the new disabled bay and will update this post if I do!

Found an image! Click it for a larger version or just click any of this text :P
 
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Nearly a nasty accident last month, was in work and at first it gave us a giggle.

A brolly was sticking 1 foot out of the doors at about groin height, and for whatever reason the doors had been closed, and platform procedures completed without noticing he brolly. Six stations later until the next island platform where the doors would be released on that side.

Gents.. Can you imagine being hit by that? I think I'd rather the train hit me :o
 

ModernRailways

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Nearly a nasty accident last month, was in work and at first it gave us a giggle.

A brolly was sticking 1 foot out of the doors at about groin height, and for whatever reason the doors had been closed, and platform procedures completed without noticing he brolly. Six stations later until the next island platform where the doors would be released on that side.

Gents.. Can you imagine being hit by that? I think I'd rather the train hit me :o

Surely platform staff or the train guard should have seen? What if it had of been a person?
 

kevinwaltets

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As the brolly could of easily have killed someone on a platform. All efforts should have been made to get the train stopped and the brolly released.

This is not a joke.
 

hassaanhc

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As a passenger that actually sounds very serious, apart from injuring passengers/staff it could also be fouling the loading gauge and cause other damage. Fair enough the guard didn't notice, if the platform is busy then it could be hidden. But why didn't anyone use the alarm? Exactly the purpose it is for, even stated in notices to use it if something is trapped in the doors :roll:
 

jon0844

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People seem too scared to use the alarms. Presumably expecting to be locked up or heavily fined.
 

Lockwood

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I've had my arm shut in a bus door as I was boarding years back, with the bus then moving off.
Managed to pull free before it got to more than running speed.
 
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People seem too scared to use the alarms. Presumably expecting to be locked up or heavily fined.

I think this is certainly the case, and perhaps something that needs looking at. Though you'd think it's only something they'd look at after an incident in which someone didn't use it and something went horribly wrong. The big warnings next to them for misuse don't really help.
 

tsr

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At certain airport stations, staff are known to be advised to watch out for the especially notable danger from skiing equipment bags, in case a lot of people arrive with them at once, and one or more end up overhanging the platform edge - they could easily be caught by trains, which could drag people underneath, or receive serious damage even if that doesn't happen. It goes to show that even fairly innocuous objects can pose major risks if they are not watched out for.

Other than trains actually hitting luggage, I agree the main risk is turbulence or the doors catching personal possessions, or else (probably more prominently) the turbulence of a passing train making you lose your balance.

As for alarms, positioning is very much the key in some situations. Imagine if you are on a crowded Victoria Line train and you notice an incident, but are at the opposite doorway from an alarm. By the time you've made yourself understood and had it used, things will have gone from bad to worse. But even so, people in a blind panic might not even think to use an alarm, despite the colour contrasts and prominent signage. This is of course why staff vigilance is key, and reliable detection systems & effective cameras must continue to be rolled out.
 
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