Joanna Dennehy: serial killer

[Bogiesdey]

Execution is revenge, so what, if one of my family was murdered by a low life junkie not only would I want them killed I would want to look into their eyes and see the fear as they saw their end approaching.after their death the only cost would be a cheap cremation and no more expense to keep Their worthless lives in a high security prison.

 

[SS4]

If a panel of judges considered and confirmed the guilt of someone convicted of these crimes I would willingly attach my consent to their execution.

Would you also kill them with your own hand (or administer the fatal dose)?

 

[DarloRich]

Do you not have to kill 5 people to be a serial killer?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I thought it was four to be a serial killer, but I'm most likely wrong!

As for the death penalty. No, absolutely never in a million years should it be reintroduced. It is nothing but state-sanctioned revenge and I would feel extremely uncomfortable living in a country where such power was held over citizens. At least when mistakes are made now (Birmingham Six etc) in trials over such offences you can rectify them. Sadly the same cannot be said for Derek Bentley or Mahmood Hussain Mattan.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Execution is revenge, so what, if one of my family was murdered by a low life junkie not only would I want them killed I would want to look into their eyes and see the fear as they saw their end approaching.after their death the only cost would be a cheap cremation and no more expense to keep Their worthless lives in a high security prison.

I'm sorry, but that genuinely sounds sociopathic. I don't care if it's socially acceptable; that is an extremely unpleasant thing to wish regardless of what has happened. Lives are never worthless, and it's this sort of attitude that leads to the disgusting no-hope prisons that we see around the world. Fortunately Britain's moved (slightly) past that.

It always puzzles me why, whenever there is a story about some horrible crime posted on a news site, there are always legions of people in the comments who want to do even worse things to the perpetrator.

 

[90019]

No, absolutely never in a million years should it be reintroduced. It is nothing but state-sanctioned revenge and I would feel extremely uncomfortable living in a country where such power was held over citizens.

I've had an idea.

We should ask everybody whether they believe the death penalty should be reintroduced.
Then, reintroduce it, but only applying to those who think it should be.



Sorted.

 

[SS4]

I've had an idea.

We should ask everybody whether they believe the death penalty should be reintroduced.
Then, reintroduce it, but only applying to those who think it should be.



Sorted.

And they must be the one to kill. I know I'm harping on about this but I don't think many people know (myself included) what it's like to take a life

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How do you make justifications for criminals who have no compunction whatsoever in carrying out their personal version of the death penalty in a civilised country that does not adhere to the use of the death penalty ? The criminal who recently cold-bloodedly executed two policewomen is an example that I will cite ?

Do forum members think that these criminals should be allowed to hold to and carry out the ultimate sanction but not to allow the vast majority of the populace to have such carte blanche freedom of choice ?

 

[bnm]

Does anyone have any non-anecdotal evidence that prisoners live the life of Riley whilst inside (barring having absolutely no freedom of course).

Yes. First hand. Category B, Category C and Category D.

Four short sentences for non-violent crimes, at a time in my life when I was unaware of the mental health diagnoses I now have. Also at a time in my life when I got severely into debt and chose the wrong options to address that. Theft, deception, fraud. And then ongoing petty crime (such as shoplifting) whilst homeless.

The first time was hell. Just a 3 month sentence (6 weeks served), the first half of that was spent in HMP Bristol on a mixed wing containing every possible type of criminal - those on remand for murder, gang members, drug traffickers, drug users, career criminals. I was transferred out after 3 weeks to a Category D prison - HMP Leyhill - but not before I'd been assaulted, had personal items stolen (both from my cell and from property in the care of the Prison Service) and threatened with having my throat cut. Leyhill was better, but my short time there and homelessness on release meant there was no time for rehabilitation.

Second time in Exeter, followed by HMP Weare (the ship that used to be moored in Portland Harbour). Three and half months inside this time. Again, little better. You are constantly on edge, particularly if you want no part of the drugs culture that goes on inside. Saying no to drugs and not even entertaining the idea of getting them in to the prison means your are automatically treated with suspicion by fellow inmates. I did get some help addressing my now diagnosed mental health issues whilst at The Verne, but again, the short sentence and homelessness on release, meant any progress was quickly undone.

Third time was as bad as the first. Just four weeks this time, first at HMP Preston and placed on the 'drug' wing as by now I'd self identified as having a drink problem. Again no picnic. No TVs, no radios, certainly no Playstation and very limited access to reading material. Oh, and slopping out. Moved to HMP Leeds where the wing I was put on was controlled by some particularly unsavoury members of the travelling community.

Final time was back in Bristol and at last there was light at the end of the tunnel. 3 months to serve of a six month sentence. Although again only there for a short time I got a decent Personal Officer who understood my problems, quickly sorted out accommodation on my release and helped start the bridge building with my family. Sadly this was very nearly all undone when bureaucracy decided that my Cat C status meant I had to move to a Cat C establishment. Moved to HMP Stafford for the last 5 weeks of the sentence. HMP Stafford was as badly run as the NHS Trust in that area!

On release from Stafford, I had the accommodation to go to in Bristol. That supported housing (St Vincent's House) saved my life, stopped my offending behaviour and got me back on my feet. That was 2006 and I haven't looked back. I still have the mental health issues that were, in part, responsible for (but not an excuse for) my offending behaviour, but there has been no recidivism and I'm living a settled life in my own place now.

I most certainly didn't live the life of Riley. I never had a Playstation, only about 50% of the time did I have an in cell TV. There would regularly be no outdoor exercise due to staff issues/security. Food was atrocious. And there was a constant fear that one word out of place to a fellow inmate would lead to assault. I tried to keep my head down and just read, but even that was regarded by some as odd behaviour. Boredom was my constant companion.

So before there is more ill-informed tosh about prisoners having it cushy, walk a mile in my shoes. You'll have to do that walk around a razor wire topped high-walled yard though. And the shoes will be poorly fitting Home Office Hi-Tecs. And when you've finished that walk there'll be no warm bath and cold beer. Just an 8'x6' room shared with a bloke you'd never dream of talking to on the out. Who will probably have major personal hygiene issues.

 

[DarloRich]

How do you make justifications for criminals who have no compunction whatsoever in carrying out their personal version of the death penalty in a civilised country that does not adhere to the use of the death penalty ? The criminal who recently cold-bloodedly executed two policewomen is an example that I will cite ?

Do forum members think that these criminals should be allowed to hold to and carry out the ultimate sanction but not to allow the vast majority of the populace to have such carte blanche freedom of choice ?

So, in doing so, you are happy to accept that you are lowering yourself to their level?

Does the moral authority of the rule of law not hold you at a higher standard than those who step beyond that standard?

 

[bnm]

Oh my brothers hold the keys and get to go home every day.

So no clue whatsoever what it's like from a prisoners perspective then? I think the earlier comment that your 'experience' is anecdotal remains very much correct.

 

[SS4]

How do you make justifications for criminals who have no compunction whatsoever in carrying out their personal version of the death penalty in a civilised country that does not adhere to the use of the death penalty ? The criminal who recently cold-bloodedly executed two policewomen is an example that I will cite ?

Execution is State condoned killing. Murder is when it is done without State approval. Someone who executes someone cannot be a criminal for that act. In this woman's case there is no justification for what she did but there is no reason for us to sink to her level

Do forum members think that these criminals should be allowed to hold to and carry out the ultimate sanction but not to allow the vast majority of the populace to have such carte blanche freedom of choice ?

Nobody is allowed to murder but because they have we lock them up for public safety and to punish or rehabilitate them depending on your point of view. Everyone has the freedom of choice when it comes to killing someone but most don't exercise it thankfully.

 

[Amberley54]

Execution is State condoned killing. Murder is when it is done without State approval. Someone who executes someone cannot be a criminal for that act.

Er, are you sure about that?

Read somewhere that defence wasn't accepted at Nuremburg trials of Nazi executioners in the 1940s. Also more recently that the Serbians who killed thousands of Muslims at places such as Sebrinicia across the disintegrating Jugoslavia in the 1990s have failed with that defence at The Hague International Court.

I also note that non of the pro- capital punishment posters have yet to respond to my point about the several mid-carriages of justice here in the UK during the 1970s that a decade earlier would have seen the wrongly convicted defendants hanged.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So, in doing so, you are happy to accept that you are lowering yourself to their level? Does the moral authority of the rule of law not hold you at a higher standard than those who step beyond that standard?

Perhaps I had not made my point as clear as I had hoped in my "Devil's Advocate" posting. In response to your posting, we are all subject to the hoped-for ethics of a civilised society yet allowances seem to be made in certain quarters for criminals who reserve the right to execute fellow members of society whilst stridently decrying any execution in countries where the death penalty is still on their statute book.

I will reiterate yet again that I am implacably opposed to the death penalty.

Shall we now continue a line of thought in this debate concerning the matter of "honour killings" that seem to be a custom for those now resident in Britain who have their roots in cultures where this is deemed a normal practice, as such killings have indeed occurred in Britain. Should we make allowances for such views ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Everyone has the freedom of choice when it comes to killing someone but most don't exercise it thankfully.

What Statute in Law grants us the said freedom of choice to kill another person ?

 

[SS4]

What Statute in Law grants us the said freedom of choice to kill another person ?

There is none but there is still the freedom to disobey the law as the titular woman did

 

[cjp]

I'm sorry, but that genuinely sounds sociopathic. . . . Lives are never worthless, ....

How are you assessing worth then?

Never is a very powerful word


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, in doing so, you are happy to accept that you are lowering yourself to their level?

Does the moral authority of the rule of law not hold you at a higher standard than those who step beyond that standard?

I guess then you are a pacifist who would not fight a foe?
Well done if you can manage it.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, in doing so, you are happy to accept that you are lowering yourself to their level?

Does the moral authority of the rule of law not hold you at a higher standard than those who step beyond that standard?

So if someone stronger than you attacked you with a knife, had you cornered you would not fight back, perhaps turn their own weapon upon them if you could. You would perish rather than lower yourself to their level? Do I admire such fortitude or ridicule it - _ do not not know?

I started this thread by proposing an alternative to imprisoning someone for the rest of their life, by letting them end it by committing suicide after a certain number of years if they so wished - mercy killing even. Nothing I have read so far makes me withdraw the suggestion, that choice be given to those who we would shut away for ever from our society, our Brave New World, our civilisation.
Their life in their hands but only after they have had time to reflect, to be punished, to perhaps regret their actions - but not to regret from the perspective of self-pity.

 

[TheKnightWho]

How are you assessing worth then?

Never is a very powerful word

As is 'worthless'.

 

[DarloRich]

I guess then you are a pacifist who would not fight a foe?
Well done if you can manage it.

So if someone stronger than you attacked you with a knife, had you cornered you would not fight back, perhaps turn their own weapon upon them if you could. You would perish rather than lower yourself to their level? Do I admire such fortitude or ridicule it - _ do not not know?

I started this thread by proposing an alternative to imprisoning someone for the rest of their life, by letting them end it by committing suicide after a certain number of years if they so wished - mercy killing even. Nothing I have read so far makes me withdraw the suggestion, that choice be given to those who we would shut away for ever from our society, our Brave New World, our civilisation.
Their life in their hands but only after they have had time to reflect, to be punished, to perhaps regret their actions - but not to regret from the perspective of self-pity.

I am sorry I have no idea what you are talking about. You are aware that the situations you suggest are covered by existing legislation and therefore fall within the rule of law.

In the case of the person attacking you you have a right to defend yourself or others using the appropriate force needed to do so. That can include deadly force.

With regard to your initial post - the option you suggest transfers control of the situation to the individual who has committed the most heinous crimes. it allows them to control their own destiny, allows them to control the moment of their demise and offers them the liberty they have taken from other people. That seems wrong and contrary to the central themes of our criminal justice system.

To me you lock these people away and deprive them of publicity and attention. Let them rot in solitary confinement for the rest of their natural days, forced to confront the enormity of their crimes, knowing that there will never be an escape - I would even expend all effort to keep them alive to prolong the punishment.

Please dont assume that because i take a liberal stance on many things i have any love for those who go beyond the boundaries of law, decency and civilisation!

 

[Johnuk123]

Violent criminals do not stay in those sorts of prisons, as I'm sure you very well know. Unless you're completely ignorant of prisons (and therefore in no place to comment on them), you would know that there are different grades for different types of prisoner. Only the lower security ones get things such as those, and in higher security it's very much dependent on your crime and your behaviour in the prison: most people don't get them.

I must correct your very widely held common misconception that the best prisoners get the best conditions.

I was in the prison service for some years before transferring to the police service and after quite a few years in that becoming a prison liason officer
so going full circle.

Generally the prisoners serving the longest sentences get by far the better conditions and perks.

For instance - Single cells, no prison uniform (except on visits) wing spur kitchens available at certain times to cook own purchased food.
Access to some of the finest and well equipped gyms (some are the best in the various counties)
Access to Open University courses to degree level mostly paid for by the taxpayer. No compulsory work (obviously with a reduction in pay)
Some of the best courses going which would cost a lot outside the prison.

All the high security estate/dispersal system have these perks and conditions as a right irrespective of sentence or crime.

455Driver as he's been round a prison it will have been one of about 3 new one's I can think of unless it was more than 20 odd years ago.

The only thing he's a little bit wrong on is there aren't wings exclusively for murderers but there are wings with a large percentage of them, he's right about sex offender exclusive wings. He's quite right that the conditions for long termers are excellent if you put aside the loss of liberty.

It doesn't matter what you're crime is or how long you're serving a long term prisoner will not be denied anything currently available unless in Seg. conditions.

I can't remember who wrote about solitary conditions - no such thing exists in this country, at least not for more than a day or 2. Seg. units do have single cells, dirty protest and constant observation cells but solitary confinement is an urban myth. Saying that Seg. units traditionally have the odd prisoner who won't conform so they're exercised separately.

 

[DarloRich]

It doesn't matter what you're crime is or how long you're serving a long term prisoner will not be denied anything currently available unless in Seg. conditions.

I can't remember who wrote about solitary conditions - no such thing exists in this country, at least not for more than a day or 2. Seg. units do have single cells, dirty protest and constant observation cells but solitary confinement is an urban myth. Saying that Seg. units traditionally have the odd prisoner who won't conform so they're exercised separately.

Might have been me. I have some experience of the prison system and my point is there SHOULD be proper segregation for serious criminals not that there IS proper segregation.

I would also make the general prison population subject to much harsher rules but that is for another thread!

Whilst i may be liberal in many views i think i am somewhat extreme in my views of those who go beyond the bounds of law and decency!

 

[Johnuk123]

Might have been me. I have some experience of the prison system and my point is there SHOULD be proper segregation for serious criminals not that there IS proper segregation.

I would also make the general prison population subject to much harsher rules but that is for another thread!

Whilst i may be liberal in many views i think i am somewhat extreme in my views of those who go beyond the bounds of law and decency!

Every prison officer you'll meet with the odd exception is frustrated by how easy long termers get it, unfortunately that's a Government issue and it won't change any time soon.

Talking about segregating criminals the massive problem we have now is muslim terrorists. There are so many that the service cannot distribute them around so all Dispersal prisons now have a very hard core who radicalise the more moderate ones including some previously non-muslim.
This group of prisoners are far far worse than the IRA ever was, and with the amount we have and getting bigger by the day they are causing big problems.

 

[DarloRich]

Every prison officer you'll meet with the odd exception is frustrated by how easy long termers get it, unfortunately that's a Government issue and it won't change any time soon.

Talking about segregating criminals the massive problem we have now is muslim terrorists. There are so many that the service cannot distribute them around so all Dispersal prisons now have a very hard core who radicalise the more moderate ones including some previously non-muslim.
This group of prisoners are far far worse than the IRA ever was, and with the amount we have and getting bigger by the day they are causing big problems.

Strangely I was talking about that to some friends who are/were prison officers the other day about this very issue. They were very worried that the "system" didn't have enough capacity to deal with many more or any support to challenge the future problems.

One suggestion was more "Bellmarsh" style maximum security segregation units for these radicalised nut jobs along with an acknowledgement that while people want criminals locked up no one wants them locked up near them!

That or have them declared insane at trial and packed off the Broadmoor!

 

[Johnuk123]

Strangely I was talking about that to some friends who are/were prison officers the other day about this very issue. They were very worried that the "system" didn't have enough capacity to deal with many more or any support to challenge the future problems.

One suggestion was more "Bellmarsh" style maximum security segregation units for these radicalised nut jobs along with an acknowledgement that while people want criminals locked up no one wants them locked up near them!

That or have them declared insane at trial and packed off the Broadmoor!

To be honest the Government don't know what to do with them because the units you describe are what used to be called SSU'S/HSU'S I worked in one and the cost per prisoner place was over 100 grand a year.

As regards living near a prison the worst type to live by is a Cat D Open as prisoners simply walk out and some are lifers/murderers who might have done a long time but still not nice people.

If you're near a max security one as it has 2 fences and a wall with geophones and various devices you won't see many prisoners running down your street.


p.s. I bet your friends are from Woodhill, been there a few times.

 

[455driver]

Thanks Johnuk123 but apparently its all anecdotal according to some posters!

Oh the prison I went round wasnt a new one either, far from it in fact.
friends in high places and all that!

 

[Johnuk123]

Thanks Johnuk123 but apparently its all anecdotal according to some posters!

Oh the prison I went round wasnt a new one either, far from it in fact.
friends in high places and all that!

Oh right it was actually open was it. As you no doubt know it's virtually impossible to have a look around a prison once it's got prisoners in it.

As you're in Feltham you sure you're not inside yourself.

 

[DarloRich]

p.s. I bet your friends are from Woodhill, been there a few times.

Not all of them

 

[455driver]

Oh right it was actually open was it. As you no doubt know it's virtually impossible to have a look around a prison once it's got prisoners in it.

As you're in Feltham you sure you're not inside yourself.

The prison (a maximum security one in Cambridgeshire) has been open for many many years and was full of prisoners, I found the whole experience rather un-nerving. It was a place I would not relish working in.

No I am not inside although looking at some of the cells it certainly wouldnt be too much of a hardship, they were like well appointed flats.

This is also anecdotal of course!

 

[bnm]

This is also anecdotal of course!

Of course it is. You have no comprehension whatsoever of what it's like to be a serving prisoner.

 

[455driver]

Of course it is. You have no comprehension whatsoever of what it's like to be a serving prisoner.

Of which I am thankful!

 

[Johnuk123]

Of course it is. You have no comprehension whatsoever of what it's like to be a serving prisoner.

Of course he doesn't know what it's like to have the cell door closed at night but as he's seen inside a working prison which is virtually impossible to most people he has seen something of the excellent conditions.