Joanna Dennehy: serial killer

[455driver]

So basically all your posts are anecdotal as well then.

Basically any post you disagree with is anecdotal! Yawn. :roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

So basically all your posts are anecdotal as well then.

Basically any post you disagree with is anecdotal! Yawn. :roll:

Sorry, but are you being obtuse for the sake of it or do you genuinely not understand that the word means 'personal stories' and not 'anything I've ever said'? There's a big difference between the couple of stories you've mentioned and actual, hard statistics and facts. America's prison system is hardly an anecdote.

I'm trying to be polite here, but you're just being infuriating.

 

[455driver]

What has Americas prisons got to do with it?

So what I see with my own eyes is purely anecdotal but everything you read (with your eyes) is fact!
Yeah alright then! :roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

So basically all your posts are anecdotal as well then.

Basically any post you disagree with is anecdotal! Yawn. :roll:

What has Americas prisons got to do with it?

So what I see with my own eyes is purely anecdotal but everything you read (with your eyes) is fact!
Yeah alright then! :roll:

Wait, what? You've seen one small part of the prison system with your own eyes and have extrapolated conclusions from it. That's called using anecdotal evidence. Like I said, not everything you've ever read or seen is anecdoctal - it does actually have a useful definition, although you seem to like ignoring it.

I've looked at overarching facts about the whole system. That's called actual evidence, although I'm happy to be shown that I'm wrong. Anecdotal evidence won't do that, though.

You just can't resist the patronising tone though, can you

 

[SS4]

So me going on a tour of the prison and seeing it with my own eyes is anecdotal!:roll:

Maybe I should have taken some pictures even though our cameras and phones etc were taken from us before we were allowed on the tour!

If you saw a pregnant woman would you assume all women are pregnant?

 

[GB]

Do you seriously think its possible to rehabilitate offenders convicted of multiple murders, murders with a high degree of savagery or sexual offences of a predatory nature? These are the sorts of people that whole life terms are designed for as there can be no way to make certain these "people" can be trusted out in public.

Whole life (imo) is or should be just as much about protecting the public as it is locking the offender up as punishment.

 

[SS4]

Do you seriously think its possible to rehabilitate offenders convicted of multiple murders, murders with a high degree of savagery or sexual offences of a predatory nature? These are the sorts of people that whole life terms are designed for as there can be no way to make certain these "people" can be trusted out in public.

Whole life (imo) is or should be just as much about protecting the public as it is locking the offender up as punishment.

Yes, I do think it's possible but even if you didn't think they could be rehabilitated does that mean it's not worth trying? Just who, as a society, do we give up on and when do we do so?

 

[Oswyntail]

Yes, I do think it's possible but even if you didn't think they could be rehabilitated does that mean it's not worth trying? Just who, as a society, do we give up on and when do we do so?

That is one of the best replies on this or any similar debate I have ever seen. That last bit is the key question.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I do think it's possible but even if you didn't think they could be rehabilitated does that mean it's not worth trying? Just who, as a society, do we give up on and when do we do so?

I believe strongly that as a society, we have a right to decide that some crimes are so heinous, the perpetrator doesn‘t deserve an attempt at rehabilitation, only punishment. In answer to your question, the whole life tariff is a means of deciding this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I believe strongly that as a society, we have a right to decide that some crimes are so heinous, the perpetrator doesn‘t deserve an attempt at rehabilitation, only punishment. In answer to your question, the whole life tariff is a means of deciding this.

I will put forward examples of:-
Ian Brady
Myra Hindley
Rosemary West

 

[TheKnightWho]

I will put forward examples of:-
Ian Brady
Myra Hindley
Rosemary West

Are any of us really in a position to judge for any of them, though?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are any of us really in a position to judge for any of them, though?

No. But that is why we have a legal system to act on behalf of all of us.

If we do not accept that the legal system can do this on our behalf, then what other system can be proposed ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

No. But that is why we have a legal system to act on behalf of all of us.

If we do not accept that the legal system can do this on our behalf, then what other system can be proposed ?

Oh, I don't disagree, but I think we can also legitimately question the efficacy of the present system.

My point was just that I don't think any of us are in a position to completely write anyone off, regardless of whether it's legally sanctioned or not. I mean at the end of the day the question is whether it should be legally sanctioned, isn't it?

 

[yorksrob]

I will put forward examples of:-
Ian Brady
Myra Hindley
Rosemary West

Quite.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, I don't disagree, but I think we can also legitimately question the efficacy of the present system.

My point was just that I don't think any of us are in a position to completely write anyone off, regardless of whether it's legally sanctioned or not. I mean at the end of the day the question is whether it should be legally sanctioned, isn't it?

I suspect that comes down to our philosophical difference of opinion. I do believe it is something we should decide upon for ourslves as a society, rather than have it imposed though.

 

[Oswyntail]

I believe strongly that as a society, we have a right to decide that some crimes are so heinous, the perpetrator doesn‘t deserve an attempt at rehabilitation, only punishment.

I will put forward examples of:-
Ian Brady
Myra Hindley
Rosemary West

Do we have an objective measure of "heinous"? This woman killed three(?) men - is that "heinous"? She seems to have enjoyed doing it - but so have others. Those who killed Lee Rigby only killed one. Is Rosemary West better or worse than Ian Brady? We cannot be objective, only subjective. But what seems to be obvious in most of these cases is that the perpetrators are insane, and to me that means it is possible, just possible, that their insanity may be cured. As with any other illness, we should be giving them the opportunity to be cured, and not give up on them. By all means use a whole life tariff, with no automatic parole review - but allow for a parole review if circumstances allow it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I suspect that comes down to our philosophical difference of opinion. I do believe it is something we should decide upon for ourslves as a society, rather than have it imposed though.

That's true, although I think sometimes we should do what is best for society rather than what everyone wants.

I mean, I think spending less money and rehabilitating people serves a much greater purpose than locking them up for life, although I know many people disagree with me on this. But really, the effect of a 7 year sentence versus a 4 year one really has little practical difference to the person itself - it sounds like a big difference, but in reality they both have the same effect on the person.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Reform has been shown to work extremely well in Scandinavian countries; there's a reason the main arguments for the death penalty and harsher sentences seem to be motivated from revenge rather than genuine desire for a better penal system.

I missed this part of your multi-answer posting earlier in the thread and bringing to mind the events in 2011 that were perpetrated by Anders Behring Brevik in Norway, how is it possible to achieve any sense of dialogue with a mass murderer who has an implacable and unchangeable frame of mind that says what he did was right.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I missed this part of your multi-answer posting earlier in the thread and bringing to mind the events in 2011 that were perpetrated by Anders Behring Brevik in Norway, how is it possible to achieve any sense of dialogue with a mass murderer who has an implacable and unchangeable frame of mind that says what he did was right.

I can only say that 21 years is a long time. At the end of the day, he'll never be released unless he reforms, though.

 

[cjp]

The United Kingdom just won't go back to execution. It won't happen.

I was not suggesting the return of Capital punishment.

You can kill yourself and it will not be murder.

I suggested that after a period of time "the punishment" such people, who cannot be allowed out into our society because of the risk they present, be given the opportunity to end their lives - either from remorse or to escape still further time being locked up - saving society money.

Joanna Dennehy clearly took pleasure in killing these people - "oops I Have killed" etc

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/28/joanna-dennehy-serial-killer-first-woman-die-in-jail

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26389479

My point was she is not a candidate for reform so why pay to keep her alive once she has been punished?

 

[SS4]

I was not suggesting the return of Capital punishment. You can kill yourself and it will not be murder.

I suggested that after a period of time "the punishment" such people, who cannot be allowed out into our society because of the risk they present, be given the opportunity to end their lives - either from remorse or to escape still further time being locked up - saving society money.

Which method would you use? It would cost a decent amount of money to produce an effective poison on the minor scale needed. Who'd clean up afterwards and pay for funeral costs? There may be a psychological effect on those administering the poison/cleaning the body. The Sonderkommando of the Second World War appear to have had this problem and a lot of them believed they were killing sub-humans.

Joanna Dennehy clearly took pleasure in killing these people - "oops I Have killed" etc

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/28/joanna-dennehy-serial-killer-first-woman-die-in-jail

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26389479

My point was she is not a candidate for reform so why pay to keep her alive once she has been punished?

I was not suggesting the return of Capital punishment. - Sound familiar? This part of your post doesn't seem to make sense - if she is on a whole life tariff then her punishment ends with her death. She may not have been a candidate for reform but who's to say she's the only one?

Perhaps most importantly of all it'll be impossible to determine whether someone committed suicide of their own free will or was coerced into it and that, in my opinion, is dangerously close to what happens in dictatorships and has no place in this country

 

[cjp]

Which method would you use? It would cost a decent amount of money to produce an effective poison on the minor scale needed. Who'd clean up afterwards and pay for funeral costs?

Poisons already exist. - Animals are put down every day by Vets

As for disposal of the body how do you think it is done now when people die in prison?

I was not suggesting the return of Capital punishment. - Sound familiar? This part of your post doesn't seem to make sense - if she is on a whole life tariff then her punishment ends with her death.

I am not in a position to answer your question.

The judge rightly decided that she could not be released back into society, not that a 20, 30 40 years was a suitable punishment.
I have put forward for consideration an alternative resolution to a whole life term. A resolution that does not require the State takes a life, an option.

Perhaps most importantly of all it'll be impossible to determine whether someone committed suicide of their own free will or was coerced into it and that, in my opinion, is dangerously close to what happens in dictatorships and has no place in this country

That is a valid point however it is always circumstances that lead all down the path to suicide.
Perhaps, and I do not say this flippantly, at the appropriate time they could be counselled or listened to as the Samaritans would do for you or I?



Hey Over 500 posts!

 

[Oswyntail]

....My point was she is not a candidate for reform.....

Really? One could make an obvious start by getting her clean of drugs, then making that sort of assessment

 

[455driver]

Really? One could make an obvious start by getting her clean of drugs, then making that sort of assessment

I would like to see a few extra drugs added to her system, that probably makes me uncivilised so I am off out to belt some woman over the head so I can have my wicked way with her.

Disappears off to the left with the sounds of knuckles dragging along the floor!

edit happy 5000 posts to me!
At least 10 of them have been useful!

 

[meridian2]

What a well thought out and reasoned response...

What other response is there, or do you quantify all opinion that isn't your own as beneath you then?

 

[cjp]

edit happy 5000 posts to me!
At least 10 of them have been useful!

I wonder which useful post I missed?

Well done though
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really? One could make an obvious start by getting her clean of drugs, then making that sort of assessment

I think you will find that had already been done whilst she was awaiting trial.

The judge would have seen her and heard her sober and drug free as she laughed in the dock.

From the BBC web site . ..

As she was sentenced, Dennehy, who had been laughing during the earlier part of the hearing, showed no emotion and stood in the dock with her eyes closed.

Mr Justice Spencer told her she had murdered the three men in "cold blood".

He said: "You have shown no genuine remorse; quite the reverse. You have written to me saying you feel no remorse for the murders."

 

[455driver]

I wonder which useful post I missed?
Well done though

Oh you bitch!
Thanks.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

edit happy 5000 posts to me!
At least 10 of them have been useful!

Seems much the same success rate as the endless meetings I attend.



I haven't anything to say about Joanna Dennehy

 

[LWB]

The death penalty is revenge, not justice, and it has no place in a civilised society.

I too held that view without exception until I met someone who had lost a child to a sexual predator. The point was put that the last 'image' anyone had of this child was that 'enjoyed' by the culprit. Furthermore, that image would be relived over and over again for masturbatory pleasure and ,far worse perhaps, shared with others of like mind in the cosy prison atmosphere enjoyed by such inmates these days. I had no argument to present to this mother who in her own way relived this repulsive trauma day in, day out.

If a panel of judges considered and confirmed the guilt of someone convicted of these crimes I would willingly attach my consent to their execution.

 

[Amberley54]

I too held that view without exception until I met someone who had lost a child to a sexual predator. The point was put that the last 'image' anyone had of this child was that 'enjoyed' by the culprit. Furthermore, that image would be relived over and over again for masturbatory pleasure and ,far worse perhaps, shared with others of like mind in the cosy prison atmosphere enjoyed by such inmates these days. I had no argument to present to this mother who in her own way relived this repulsive trauma day in, day out.

If a panel of judges considered and confirmed the guilt of someone convicted of these crimes I would willingly attach my consent to their execution.

Judges have got it wrong, repeatedly. For example, Remember the Birmingham Six and Stefan Kizsko? In both cases the Court of Appeal judges upheld their convictions, and a decade earlier they would have been hanged. After decades of campaigning found to be innocent and released after spending too many years locked away. Would have been all for naught if had already been executed after judges upheld their murder convictions.

Execution is revenge, pure and simple. Murder rates are unaffected by the existence of the death penalty.

Instead, in the only western country to retain death penalty, the probability of execution is very dependant upon the perpertrator's race and poverty rather than the nature of the crime.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....I think you will find that had already been done whilst she was awaiting trial..

The effects of massive long-term drug abuse take a lot longer than she has been in custody, even assuming that she was weaned off them from day 1.