Class 450 variations

[1018509]

Hello, Mr Observant here again. I noticed today, at Clapham Junction ,that some 450 trailer cars have a blank at one end where a window could be but isn't. Both trailer cars or none.

I am aware that some 450's were modified sat some time is/was this the mod and why was it done?

 

[Muzer]

I'm not sure if this is it, but I know that some 450s were converted to HC (High Capacity) variants, which involved removing a few seats to create more standing room, and removing First Class I believe as well. I'm probably missing something else. This mod was partially reversed, but I believe not completely, on most/all of them.

 

[hassaanhc]

They had some seats removed near vestibules, extra handrails installed and First Class seating removed. Recently the First Class sections have returned but the other changes remain.

As for the blank bits where windows seem to be missing, that is where the toilets are, one each in both non-driving coaches.

 

[Muzer]

Ah, of course, why didn't I think of that?

 

[59CosG95]

I'm not sure if this is it, but I know that some 450s were converted to HC (High Capacity) variants, which involved removing a few seats to create more standing room, and removing First Class I believe as well. I'm probably missing something else. This mod was partially reversed, but I believe not completely, on most/all of them.

Those were the 450/5s, used for testing on the Hounslow loop-of course now the 458/5s are on the horizon, these 450s are being reverted to their near-original state.

 

[Uzair]

Slightly off topic, but I was at CLJ a few weeks ago and noticed that the bogies on 450075 looked a lot newer than all other 450 trains. Were they replaced or cleaned or..?

 

[swt_passenger]

They are all having bogie overhauls, you probably just coincided with that particular unit's first few days in service following the bogie exchange. They look more grey than black (for a while at least).

 

[1018509]

Why didn't I think of this. The units without the blank space do of course have it but the units are turned so the blank is on the other side.

I am holding the gun to my head; would anyone care to pull the trigger.

 

[hassaanhc]

Why didn't I think of this. The units without the blank space do of course have it but the units are turned so the blank is on the other side.

I am holding the gun to my head; would anyone care to pull the trigger.

Don't worry about it, everyone makes mistakes sometimes

They are all having bogie overhauls, you probably just coincided with that particular unit's first few days in service following the bogie exchange. They look more grey than black (for a while at least).

I actually recall seeing one like that a few days ago, at the time I thought it didn't seem normal but didn't think much about it!

 

[Juniper Driver]

Those were the 450/5s, used for testing on the Hounslow loop-of course now the 458/5s are on the horizon, these 450s are being reverted to their near-original state.

Not sure if it was testing or whether the original idea was to make them into five coach trains per unit.The bins and first class were removed.Bins were fitted under the seats.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure if it was testing or whether the original idea was to make them into five coach trains per unit.The bins and first class were removed.Bins were fitted under the seats.

I don't really think 'testing' was the right term either. 'Interim conversion' perhaps?

At the time it was first done it was a dedicated batch (29?) sized for those particular routes for the foreseeable future. Prior to the decision to convert the 458s and 460s the proposal in the ITT was to order 5 car units which would most probably have replaced the 'HCs'. So the possibility of reversion to normal (or nearly normal as it has turned out) was always allowed for, hence the first class area keeping the partitions (less doors) and reading lights etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

Those were the 450/5s, used for testing on the Hounslow loop-of course now the 458/5s are on the horizon, these 450s are being reverted to their near-original state.

They were all done by late last year.

As for the 458/5s being on the horizon, I wonder when/if they'll ever move closer, or disappear off the edge instead!

 

[Pumbaa]

The 450/5s have their First class reinstated, but some of them are still knocking around with poles in, bins and seats missing. It should have been finished a while before Christmas, but three months of shocking weather and crap availability has meant they haven't quite had the chance to finish the job.

 

[Monty]

I'm not sure the 450/5s will ever have their missing bins and standard class seating reinstalled, I think its the reason they are still going to be classified as 450/5s. Cant be many left now though, I've not seen 'HC' on any unit I have worked for some time now.

 

[Pumbaa]

I agree about the bins, but the seats should go back in.

 

[TEW]

I'm not sure the 450/5s will ever have their missing bins and standard class seating reinstalled, I think its the reason they are still going to be classified as 450/5s. Cant be many left now though, I've not seen 'HC' on any unit I have worked for some time now.

Don't think they're planned to regain the bins and seating. Not sure if all units have the First Class doors either? Think they've all had First Class reinserted for a while now. Even though the /5s are still classified separately they seem to be diagrammed as one fleet now.

 

[hassaanhc]

Don't think they're planned to regain the bins and seating. Not sure if all units have the First Class doors either? Think they've all had First Class reinserted for a while now. Even though the /5s are still classified separately they seem to be diagrammed as one fleet now.

I'm not sure the 450/5s will ever have their missing bins and standard class seating reinstalled, I think its the reason they are still going to be classified as 450/5s. Cant be many left now though, I've not seen 'HC' on any unit I have worked for some time now.

I haven't seen a HC one either for ages, so it would be unlikely there are any left. I have seen the sliding doors next to the First Class sections installed on all the ones I've been on but I haven't seen any of the /5 with them actually working instead of being left in the open position (although I use Hounslow Loop and Weybridge via Hounslow services where they may have been left open due to First Class being declassified).

 

[Helvellyn]

Don't think they're planned to regain the bins and seating. Not sure if all units have the First Class doors either? Think they've all had First Class reinserted for a while now. Even though the /5s are still classified separately they seem to be diagrammed as one fleet now.

Correct, all 127 450s are diagrammed as a single fleet. The 28 450/5s will not regain their missing standard class seats. The extra grab poles are bolted tp the floors, and fitting the missing seats would need new carpets throughout. The restored First Class sections have new carpets because the extra grab poles were removed there.

The original 100 450s, which includes the HC units, will be gaining new Disabled loos though, the same as fitted to the 444s and 450101-450127.

 

[Monty]

Don't think they're planned to regain the bins and seating. Not sure if all units have the First Class doors either? Think they've all had First Class reinserted for a while now. Even though the /5s are still classified separately they seem to be diagrammed as one fleet now.

Most if not all the units I have worked had their First Class doors refitted, I did know there was an issue with the shortage of parts when they started to convert units back but I'm pretty sure this is no longer a problem.

I haven't seen a HC one either for ages, so it would be unlikely there are any left. I have seen the sliding doors next to the First Class sections installed on all the ones I've been on but I haven't seen any of the /5 with them actually working instead of being left in the open position (although I use Hounslow Loop and Weybridge via Hounslow services where they may have been left open due to First Class being declassified).

And yes the reason for the doors being locked open is because these services are declassified.

 

[hassaanhc]

And yes the reason for the doors being locked open is because these services are declassified.

Indeed, though I've been on a few services on that route with the doors in operation. As it sounds like all of the /5 have them working again this means it was probably just a coincidence that all those instances I found were on a /0 unit :P

 

[TEW]

The original 100 450s, which includes the HC units, will be gaining new Disabled loos though, the same as fitted to the 444s and 450101-450127.

What are the differences between the two Disabled toilets? The only one I notice is the different locking mechanism. The 444s and later 450s have a button to lock the door and the earlier 450s have the handle.

 

[cjmillsnun]

They were all done by late last year.

As for the 458/5s being on the horizon, I wonder when/if they'll ever move closer, or disappear off the edge instead!

On the 458/5 thread, it has been indicated that there will hopefully be a limited service next month.

 

[swt_passenger]

The original 100 450s, which includes the HC units, will be gaining new Disabled loos though, the same as fitted to the 444s and 450101-450127.

I thought it was 110 450s delivered originally, with only an extra 17 being ordered later?

 

[JonathanH]

I thought it was 110 450s delivered originally, with only an extra 17 being ordered later?

Only 100 4-450s were ordered initially. Technically 450101 to 450110 were from the reworking of the 450/2 build with the remainder of that build forming the 350s.

There were 785 vehicles ordered. The sum is something like 100 x 4-450 + 45 x 5-444 + 32 x 5-450.

The 160 (32 x 5) became 40 4-coach units (10 450s and 30 350s).

Still agree that 450101 to 450110 have the same disabled toilets as the earlier 450s. I will miss the door lock handle which gives some kind of stronger sense of being locked than a push button.

 

[Helvellyn]

I thought it was 110 450s delivered originally, with only an extra 17 being ordered later?

My error, only 450111-127 won't get new disabled loos in the next couple of years.

What are the differences between the two Disabled toilets? The only one I notice is the different locking mechanism. The 444s and later 450s have a button to lock the door and the earlier 450s have the handle.

We were told on a Company Day that there are a couple of things not compliant, one of the main ones being that it is necessary that the sink can be used whilst someone is still sitting down.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Statutory Instrument for the 450 and 444 is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003/1704/introduction/made

The only problem shown for the 450001-110 'as built' seems to just be a failure to conform to regulation 14(b), which appears to be defining the force required to operate the nappy table. There are a few more other issues with 444s compared to the 450s though.

As written the linked SI applies to all 444s and 450001-100, there's another SI to add the next 10 x 450s.

None of that should be taken as implying that there are not further hoops to be jumped through now, the trains were only being exempted from the 1998 regulations on delivery.

For general interest, in case anyone thinks the need for exemptions is unusual in post privatisation stock, the index to exemption SIs covers almost every type of modern EMU or DMU: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/list-of-rvar-exemption-orders