Todmorden Curve

[natureboy]

I hope that I may have misunderstood your comment about "the shrill squealing of the disability rights lobby" but it does read as rather prejudicial. My own wife is severely disabled and the effect on us is that we have to strategically plan all our journeys by public transport. Indeed, much of the rail system effectively remains inaccessible to us. Thank goodness that the "shrill" lobby is making itself heard. It needs to be. I can tell you from personal experience that disabled people are still largely invisible to the general public.

I can understand the difficulties faced by disabled people when using the rail network. However, as far as I see it, it comes down to £££! i.e. if it costs 'X' amount of money to upgrade stations and when you have you only get back 10-20% of 'X' from the disabled; what's the point? It's simply not cost effective. I know it's not exactly fair, but unfortunately life's like that.
Take this example from a few years ago at Mirfield. A disabled passenger, having travelled via Huddersfield to get to Leeds returned mid afternoon, the only problem (for him), was a points failure at Mirfield East junction. The train he was on was routed via the 'up' main to platform two which only has stairs down to the road below. An announcement was made at Mirfield and the few joining passengers simply crossed over, but it was a very awkward situation for the guy in the wheelchair. He continued through to Brighouse which is where I alighted. I guess he may have got off there too and taken a taxi home, but I can't be sure because I didn't hang around.
It's been a long time since I was on train that called at platform two at Mirfield, and looking on that situation a tad lightheartedly I wonder what odds a bookmaker would give. The chances of a train having to use a non-wheelchair accessible platform on the very occasion a wheelchair user is on board! I'd guess 100,000 - 1 (or more) as I've only ever seen a disabled passenger on the local Huddersfield line service that day, and I use said service frequently.

 

[Welshman]

The trouble with Walsden is that eastbound commuters head for Todmorden (which has more trains, a ticket office, waiting rooms, the Wetherspoons, the magnificent cat, a car park, etc), and westbound commuters head for Littleborough (because it's in the GMPTE area so fares are drastically lower).

The eastbound platform at Todmorden is not wheelchair-accessible, whereas it is at Walsden. Although I've never seen a wheelchair user at Todmorden in years of daily station use, I think the shrill squealing from the disability-rights lobby is keeping Walsden alive. Provide flat access to the Leedsbound platform at Tod, and you can close Walsden. Very few people will miss it.

I agree with you re your questioning the usefulness of Walsden station.

However, I can't see Metro agreeing to its closure, especially after they trumpeted it's re-opening only 23 years ago!

 

[Hebden Bridger]

The trouble with Walsden is that eastbound commuters head for Todmorden (which has more trains, a ticket office, waiting rooms, the Wetherspoons, the magnificent cat, a car park, etc), and westbound commuters head for Littleborough (because it's in the GMPTE area so fares are drastically lower).

The eastbound platform at Todmorden is not wheelchair-accessible, whereas it is at Walsden. Although I've never seen a wheelchair user at Todmorden in years of daily station use, I think the shrill squealing from the disability-rights lobby is keeping Walsden alive. Provide flat access to the Leedsbound platform at Tod, and you can close Walsden. Very few people will miss it.

What an unpleasant rant that is. I know there are a few people in Tod who actively dislike the next town Hebden Bridge, but such hatred of Walsden (part of Tod) and disabled people is rather beyond the pale. What happens to people with no cars in your scenario?

Walsden with a population less than 20% of Todmorden had much higher passenger numbers per head of the population in 2008 when it had the same 2tph service as Tod. Then it was cut to 1tph while Tod's has increased to 3tph (soon to be 4) with new limited stop services to Manchester. The effect on passenger numbers, also the effect of more people driving to Littleborough for cheaper fares to Manchester during a downturn has been dramatic. But don't let a few facts get in the way of a discriminatory rant.

Walsden passenger numbers (courtesy of wiki)
2004/05 0.126 million
2005/06 Increase 0.133 million
2006/07 Decrease 0.120 million
2007/08 Decrease 0.117 million
2008/09 Decrease 0.113 million
2009/10 Decrease 95,548
2010/11 Increase 99,048
2011/12 Decrease 92,620

Todmorden passenger numbers
2004/05 0.297 million
2005/06 Increase 0.311 million
2006/07 Increase 0.338 million
2007/08 Increase 0.340 million
2008/09 Increase 0.416 million
2009/10 Increase 0.459 million
2010/11 Increase 0.525 million
2011/12 Increase 0.568 million

Todmorden has a Wetherspoons - I know I keep well away. Too many drunken yobs around the station at weekends.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Walsden does not have a dedicated art movement in its station buildings, unlike that to be found at Todmorden.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

Walsden does not have a dedicated art movement in its station buildings, unlike that to be found at Todmorden.

I'll let you know Walsden has a couple of very fine bus-type shelters which are very effective at keeping me dry after a wet walk over Stoodley Pike. Unlike the east bound platform at Tod which has a rather smelly waiting room, a vandalised confectionery machine and some open air metal benches.

Tod also has a herb garden, but after seeing what the youths from Wetherspoons do to the baskets, I don't think I'd pick any!

 

[Starmill]

This about Walsden is all topsy turvy. The station isn't going to be closing that's just ridiculous after it was a recent re-opneing. If people are not using it then the answer is not closing it, it is to remove the barriers to its use. A better service and the removal of the Manchester - Yorkshire fares anomalies would help reverse the trend of decline. Clearly the station is in a useful place and did do a good job of attracting custom after it opened.

Walsden does not have a dedicated art movement in its station buildings, unlike that to be found at Todmorden.

What on earth does that have to do with it...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What on earth does that have to do with it...

Cultural usage of original stone railway station buildings that otherwise would not be kept in such good condition.

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[Starmill]

I'm sorry but I just don't see this 'conspiracy to close Walsden' thing. It still has a reasonable number of passengers counted (and I wonder how many who aren't counted) and is far enough from Todmorden that it serves its own catchment area. Journeytimes along this route are not that long and nobody would be using it for Manchester - Leeds or beyond right thorough anyway. Besides I understand that infrastructure measures are mooted to improve the speed. The slowness is what makes it take so long - that and it's longer than the Standege route.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

... If any re-opening is to be done IMO greater benefit would come from restoring the Accrington-Haslingden-Bury-Clifton Jct line, although this would be very expensive and impact on the ELR.

As much as I'd agree, the chances of this have been very drastically reduced since a new Tesco was built almost immediately (as in location, not time) upon the site of the junction a few years ago. It's quite a big thing too. I'm also not sure what right you'd have to impact upon the ELR - if they own the leases etc to the land of the railway, do Network Rail or another have any legal to make them do anything?

 

[HSTEd]

I imagine Network Rail could make life very difficult for the ELR if they refuse to play ball.

 

[ianhr]

I would have thought it might be possible to come to a solution of mutual benefit by negotiation with the ELR. The Bury-Stubbins Jct section was double track and trains towards Accrington/Manchester could use the former DOWN side and the ELR run on the UP side, with passing loops provided for each railway where appropriate. Bury Bolton St station would have to be shared too, although it is quite large. In compensation more funds could be made available to develop other parts of the ELR e.g. the extension to Castleton & to expand facilities at Rawtenstall.

Agree about the Tesco problem, also some housing development in Haslingden and Helmshore + a couple of road schemes, but still not the most obstructed route in the country.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would have thought it might be possible to come to a solution of mutual benefit by negotiation with the ELR. The Bury-Stubbins Jct section was double track and trains towards Accrington/Manchester could use the former DOWN side and the ELR run on the UP side, with passing loops provided for each railway where appropriate. Bury Bolton St station would have to be shared too, although it is quite large. In compensation more funds could be made available to develop other parts of the ELR e.g. the extension to Castleton & to expand facilities at Rawtenstall.

Just to clarify a matter. After leaving Accrington and passing through the Baxenden area, were there not a series of some quite steep gradients to negotiate ?

 

[snowball]

The original route in the Haslingden area seems to be now largely occupied by the A56.

 

[ianhr]

Just to clarify a matter. After leaving Accrington and passing through the Baxenden area, were there not a series of some quite steep gradients to negotiate ?

Indeed. Baxenden Bank was notorious, at least in steam days. You can walk this stretch today as it is a footpath/cycle route and gives a good impression of the gradient.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Indeed. Baxenden Bank was notorious, at least in steam days. You can walk this stretch today as it is a footpath/cycle route and gives a good impression of the gradient.

Yes indeed it was. It was part of my commuter route, Burnley Barracks to Salford. On some mornings, those murky drizzly days we have in the pennines, as we drew into Accrington, standard tank loco at the head of the nice new rake of three open saloons, there would be waiting on the 'down' road at the very end of the viaduct, an old 0-6-0 (I think it was - often to be seen lurking on the 'other' side of the Accrington triangle). As we waited in the curved "Manchester" platform (partly made of wood, I remember) this old engine would come squeeling over the crossover and buffer up, and then bank us up the hill.

The hill was troublesome in early diesel days as well. I remember the new units (they were then!) coming to a stop sometimes for lack of adhesion, the rails wet with dew, wheels turning, but no progress.

 

[ianhr]

I've found a reference to the infrastructure updates to the Calder Valley line on the Northern Hub website at http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/ under the Bradford to Manchester Airport and Liverpool tab.

Calder Valley line improvements Facts: We're upgrading the infrastructure of the line to allow trains to travel faster. Benefits: Shorter journey times. Note that passing loops and similar (Chinley, Dore, Rochdale) all get a separate specific mention.

.

I travelled the whole route from Leeds to Man Vic via Halifax yesterday (18/2/14) and noted quite a bit of activity which really surprised me:-

New track & pointwork on the downside, both sides of Halifax, waiting to be installed along with vegetation clearance on the disused sidings and headshunt.

More vegetation clearance & 'hi viz' jackets on the downside just south of Hebden Br station.

Much activity on the Copy Pit line curve; personnel, works train, ballast etc apparently in the Stansfield Hall Jct area.

New signal bases (?) on the down line between Tod and Walsden.

Is this the start of Northern Hub works?

 

[Hebden Bridger]

I travelled the whole route from Leeds to Man Vic via Halifax yesterday (18/2/14) and noted quite a bit of activity which really surprised me:-

New track & pointwork on the downside, both sides of Halifax, waiting to be installed along with vegetation clearance on the disused sidings and headshunt.

More vegetation clearance & 'hi viz' jackets on the downside just south of Hebden Br station.

Much activity on the Copy Pit line curve; personnel, works train, ballast etc apparently in the Stansfield Hall Jct area.

New signal bases (?) on the down line between Tod and Walsden.

Is this the start of Northern Hub works?

I doubt it the Northern Hub works are planned for 2016. But there were a few minor improvements in the NR plan for 2014, including IIRC replacement signalling at Tod.

Pure speculation on my part, but this may be necessary to allow the new 4tph service south of Tod from May. It was very noticeable that during the Stalybridge blockade only 3tph ran between Rochdale and Tod, while 4tph ran to Rochdale and 5tph ran east from Copy Pit. The Dewsbury stopper was terminated at Rochdale and Hebden Bridge.

 

[The Planner]

Some of the signals are being moved around Walsden and Todmorden for the curve works, it has nothing to do with the hub.

 

[strowger]

Deleted

 

[edwin_m]

I think you could reverse from the Manchester direction at Hall Royd but only by having someone on the ground to work a frame.

 

[Welshman]

I was under the impression the ECS 0654 from Manchester Victoria went to Hebden Bridge to reverse, before running-back to form the 0744 Todmorden-Wigan Wallgate.

Must be particularly annoying for those waiting on Hebden Bridge for a Manchester train to see one with plenty of available seats go through without stopping.

 

[34D]

I was under the impression the ECS 0654 from Manchester Victoria went to Hebden Bridge to reverse, before running-back to form the 0744 Todmorden-Wigan Wallgate.

Must be particularly annoying for those waiting on Hebden Bridge for a Manchester train to see one with plenty of available seats go through without stopping.

Indeed. Here is the schedule for the ECS train

 

[Sox]

Indeed. Here is the schedule for the ECS train

A very useful link, cheers

 

[chrissawer]

On Saturdays the train actually stops at Hebden Bridge to let passengers on. Why it does this one day only I've no idea.

During the week it reverses and drives slowly through the station, very frustrating for commuters if the 0728 to Manchester is running late.

 

[Hebden Bridger]

I was under the impression the ECS 0654 from Manchester Victoria went to Hebden Bridge to reverse, before running-back to form the 0744 Todmorden-Wigan Wallgate.

Must be particularly annoying for those waiting on Hebden Bridge for a Manchester train to see one with plenty of available seats go through without stopping.

If you miss the 7.28 train to Manchester, you see this go through empty and then the Manchester platform occupied for 15mins by the 7.50 Leeds train, lots of empty seats due to the Holme Tunnel closure. Then the not-so empty 7.56 for Victoria pulls in.

 

[Sox]

More localised infrastructure improvements?

A NEW passing point should be created so more train passengers can take advantage of a faster rail service to Manchester, say campaigners.

Pendle peer and councillor Tony Greaves is leading calls for a new ‘loop’ to be installed between Gannow Junction and Colne so extra trains can be laid on to connect with the new Blackburn and Burnley to Manchester service, at Rosegrove.

Currently any passengers on the Colne to Blackpool South route would have to disembark at Burnley Central or Burnley Barracks and walk across to Burnley Manchester Road or stay on until Rosegrove to pick up the new city trains.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/11034456.Call_for_new____loop____for_train_link_to_Manchester/

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sounds like a loop at Burnley Central or similar. Perhaps running a Rose Grove-Colne shuttle in addition to the hourly services ex-Blackpool South? Suppose it all depends on how everything fits together in the timetable. I certainly believe towns the size of Colne and Nelson (in addition to Burnley) could sustain a half-hourly service, it'd just be a question of where the service terminated.

 

[bluenoxid]

I think the first logical place would be Blackburn for a short service, although Rose Grove would be a potential point. The biggest issue from my point of view is the lack of parking

 

[Darren R]

I read this article earlier and was going to post to post it myself. Despite having re-read it several times, I am still confused as to what Councillor Greaves is proposing exactly: I cannot decide whether that is because the councillor or the reporter is confused (a little from Column A, a little from Column B, perhaps.)

If the crux of his proposal is that he just wants extra trains from Colne, then that has little or no relevance to the new services via the curve at Toddy. If the point is that he wants passengers from the Colne line to be able to connect into the new services come December, then it doesn't need any passing loops - it needs a change to the timetable.

The councillor seems to have in mind some sort of extra services from Colne to Burnley Manchester Road (or beyond?) The article says this:

Currently any passengers on the Colne to Blackpool South route would have to disembark at Burnley Central or Burnley Barracks and walk across to Burnley Manchester Road or stay on until Rosegrove to pick up the new city trains.

As for an increase in service for the Colne branch - the demand just doesn't come close to justifying it (although of course that does ignore the arguments about suppressed demand because of low-levels of service provision.) Colne, Nelson and Brierfield stations combined get a quarter of a million passengers per annum - an average of just over 700 per day. The trains from Colne do not start getting busy until they reach Burnley. The four Burnley stations (including Rose Grove as the fourth) get just shy of 440,000 passengers pa. That's where the demand is, and that's who is getting an improved service in December.