Oyster readers between Southwark and Waterloo East

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm curious: Can anyone explain the purpose of having two sets of Oyster readers between Southwark and Waterloo East? If changing between Jubilee line and National Rail, you have to touch out your Oyster, only to touch in again further along the corridor.

I can understand having one set of barriers, to verify the route you are taking, but the second set of barriers seems pointless, given that the physical arrangement means that once you've passed through one of them, you have no choice but to pass through the other one.

 

[yorkie]

I'm curious: Can anyone explain the purpose of having two sets of Oyster readers between Southwark and Waterloo East? If changing between Jubilee line and National Rail, you have to touch out your Oyster, only to touch in again further along the corridor.

I can understand having one set of barriers, to verify the route you are taking, but the second set of barriers seems pointless, given that the physical arrangement means that once you've passed through one of them, you have no choice but to pass through the other one.

I agree; it's ludicrous!

However I disagree with the concept of having one set of barriers; nowhere I know of has a barrier for interchanging! A gateline takes you out of the system, but you'd still be in it!

At Southwark there is a strange no-mans land, which is outside the system but has no direct access to the outside world! It is, as far as I know, unique in that respect.

If you want route validation for Oyster PAYG, to as you say "verify the route" then all you need are pink readers on posts, not two gatelines!

 

[Mojo]

I'm curious: Can anyone explain the purpose of having two sets of Oyster readers between Southwark and Waterloo East? If changing between Jubilee line and National Rail, you have to touch out your Oyster, only to touch in again further along the corridor.

I can understand having one set of barriers, to verify the route you are taking, but the second set of barriers seems pointless, given that the physical arrangement means that once you've passed through one of them, you have no choice but to pass through the other one.

London Underground had ticket gates installed from when the station opened. Up until a couple of years ago, Waterloo East used to have no ticket gates. Then, Southeastern installed gates, but only to the Southwark station and Sandell Street exits, so it was possible to exit via the Waterloo main concourse without passing through a gateline. Staff also used to lie and say that Waterloo East was a Compulsory Ticket Area and refuse to let customers who were simply using the Waterloo East station as a thoroughfare from Waterloo to Southwark London Underground station.

Now Waterloo East station is gated on all sides leading to the bizarre situation described, where you are effectively trapped between two gatelines with nowhere to go aside from London Underground and Southeastern ticket machines.

I would hazard a guess that the situation arose where Southeastern weren't willing to take the revenue risk whereby a number of customers would leave the Underground station and then continue to travel on their services but not paying for it, but London Underground were not willing to take the risk whereby people would enter the railway on Southeastern and not pay, and then continue to travel on the Underground and not pay. The alternative theory is that the frequently proposed suggestion of turning the emergency exit between the two gatelines into a normal entrance/exit may one day become a reality.

 

[DJL]

I've often wondered what happens if you get trapped there between the 2 gatelines.
i.e. you think you have a valid ticket for interchange but the barrier rejects it and it turns out you don't.
I hadn't noticed that there were ticket machines there as mentioned above however you could still find yourself trapped if you have no money.

Would staff open the emergency exit for you to leave? (Again - I hadn't noticed one previously)
Would they escort you to an exit?
Or just open the gate and hope you don't board a train?

Hopefully they wouldn't just point and laugh!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would hazard a guess that the situation arose where Southeastern weren't willing to take the revenue risk whereby a number of customers would leave the Underground station and then continue to travel on their services but not paying for it, but London Underground were not willing to take the risk whereby people would enter the railway on Southeastern and not pay, and then continue to travel on the Underground and not pay. The alternative theory is that the frequently proposed suggestion of turning the emergency exit between the two gatelines into a normal entrance/exit may one day become a reality.

That's an interesting theory. Are there really emergency exits between the sets of barriers? (I hadn't noticed any).

My own theory was that the gates were on separate systems (TfL, and SouthEastern), and someone decided it was cheaper to put two sets of gates in than to program a single set of gates to recognize that you are transferring between underground and SouthEastern when you cross them. But that is pure uninformed speculation.
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However I disagree with the concept of having one set of barriers; nowhere I know of has a barrier for interchanging! A gateline takes you out of the system, but you'd still be in it!

I seem to recall needing to touch through gates at Stratford to change from Central to Jubilee a few years ago.

In principle I have no problem with a *single* gateline for interchanging provided there are posters of something to make it clear to customers that the gateline is only for route verification, not for exit (Otherwise you could have quite a few worried passengers). If you don't have a barrier, many people won't touch to verify, and could therefore be either undercharged or overcharged if the system therefore thinks they've taken a different route. (And of course, if not verifying leads to undercharging, then you can guarantee some people will start deliberately not verifying their route).

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure there's something in the history of this about the local planning department not wanting the new entrance to also provide a short cut to the main Waterloo station through Waterloo East, or a second entrance to Waterloo East, so the original setup was an interchange only. It looks like subsequent modifications have continued to be based on this principle.

When Southwark LU opened, neither Waterloo East or Main stations had gate lines - the current provision may be based on maintaining a similar double barrier line for interchange purposes as the rest of the whole station complex. (Only the W&C line is different.)

There was a proposal a few years back for an additional NR entrance here: http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/3776

 

[bicbasher]

So if you leave Waterloo East and exit using both gatelines at Southwark, do you get charged a combined NR/TfL fare?

 

[bb21]

I've often wondered what happens if you get trapped there between the 2 gatelines.

For example, when one inadvertently exceeds the maximum journey time and triggers two maximum charges which take you into negative balances. You would be truly stuck unless there are ticket machines able to top-up or sell paper tickets.

 

[simple simon]

For example, when one inadvertently exceeds the maximum journey time and triggers two maximum charges which take you into negative balances. You would be truly stuck unless there are ticket machines able to top-up or sell paper tickets.

Assuming that you have a means of payment on you.

It is perfectly reasonable to add enough money for an Oyster PAYG e-purse in anticipation of a trouble-free journey and then leave home withiout additional money - or plastic payment cards. its not the passengers' fault if they fall victim to an Oyster foible.

btw, changing trains between C2C and DLR at Limehouse requires passing through a ticket gate. This may be because most DLR stations are 'open'.

Woolwich Arsenal comes to mind as well, but I am not 100% sure about this station.

Someone mentioned Stratford. There was a time when I often changed to the North London Line at West Ham, which meant that I sidestepped the JLE ticket barrier. I used to do this because JLE trains queue to enter the terminal platforms at Stratford (3 are not enough; there should have been 4) and if I timed my journey right (and NLL trains were running 'on time') so it was quicker to change trains than stay on the JLE.

I just wish I'd filmed more NNL trains on that route, when I could. The 30 minute interval between trains was always inappropriate for an urban service.

Simon

 

[hassaanhc]

Woolwich Arsenal comes to mind as well, but I am not 100% sure about this station.

I happened to interchange between DLR and Southeastern there last week. It is possible to enter using the SE barriers and walk down to the DLR without any other barriers in between (if I remember correctly :P). Both DLR entrances also have barriers.

I've used Stratford many times over the last few months and don't recall any barriers anywhere other than by both entrances to the Bus Station and by the entrance right next to Westfield on the other end of the complex (but I have only used the Jubilee Line and the Stratford International branch DLR platforms in almost all cases, only alighted from a Central Line once. I'm sure I do recall seeing standalone readers by the original DLR platforms though, as there is meant to be another entrance leading directly to those platforms?

 

[Mojo]

I've used Stratford many times over the last few months and don't recall any barriers anywhere other than by both entrances to the Bus Station and by the entrance right next to Westfield on the other end of the complex (but I have only used the Jubilee Line and the Stratford International branch DLR platforms in almost all cases, only alighted from a Central Line once. I'm sure I do recall seeing standalone readers by the original DLR platforms though, as there is meant to be another entrance leading directly to those platforms?

The various validators around Stratford station are intended for the use of customers transferring from Greater Anglia services (with a paper ticket) and then going on to other destinations within the zones.

The gateline between the Jubilee line platforms, and the rest of Stratford station, were removed a few years ago now, the gates "recycled" for use at the Mezzanine entrance to the station which opened in March 2011.

 

[CNash]

There was a proposal a few years back for an additional NR entrance here: http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/3776

That's interesting. I wonder why it didn't go ahead? The article mentions overcrowding on the walkway between the two stations, which is still very much a problem in peak hours and has caused me to miss my connection in the main station several times. Even if this proposed new exit only opened in the peaks, a la the Northumberland Avenue exit from Charing Cross, it would help.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

That's interesting. I wonder why it didn't go ahead? The article mentions overcrowding on the walkway between the two stations, which is still very much a problem in peak hours and has caused me to miss my connection in the main station several times. Even if this proposed new exit only opened in the peaks, a la the Northumberland Avenue exit from Charing Cross, it would help.

I've heard that the locals didn't like the thought of all us scruffy rail passengers walking past their homes.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm curious: Can anyone explain the purpose of having two sets of Oyster readers between Southwark and Waterloo East? If changing between Jubilee line and National Rail, you have to touch out your Oyster, only to touch in again further along the corridor.

I can understand having one set of barriers, to verify the route you are taking, but the second set of barriers seems pointless, given that the physical arrangement means that once you've passed through one of them, you have no choice but to pass through the other one.

It's to stop all the TfL staff based at Palestra using Waterloo East as a shortcut to the Waterloo area when it's raining (unless they're also season ticket holders valid at Waterloo East). The TfL staff pass works the Southwark barrier but not the Waterloo East one.

Well, that's one effect it's had.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm curious: Can anyone explain the purpose of having two sets of Oyster readers between Southwark and Waterloo East? If changing between Jubilee line and National Rail, you have to touch out your Oyster, only to touch in again further along the corridor.

I can understand having one set of barriers, to verify the route you are taking, but the second set of barriers seems pointless, given that the physical arrangement means that once you've passed through one of them, you have no choice but to pass through the other one.

The double barrier is necassary to facilitate the free passage through Southwark without incurring a mixed mode surcharge. Journeys from Southeastern stations to Southwark are considered to be NR only if they include travel via Waterloo East. An example of an alternative, no touch required journey, is Erith - Woolwich Arsenal - Canning Town - Southwark.

Pink validators would not be enough because they are optional and at peak times people would be swept along without using them. A gateline will never handle both exit from one station and entry to another. They did try it at Stratford, but the fact it's gone speaks volumes about the problems it caused.

Finally, I don't think it is possible to be stranded between the two gatelines between Southwark and Waterloo East. If you had no money on the card it would always be the exit gateline which would object. When you use the entry gateline it simply continues the journey so will always let you through.

OK, there is one scenario where you could get stuck, but can anyone really envisage taking more than 10 minutes to get from one gateline to the other?

 

[causton]

The double barrier is necassary to facilitate the free passage through Southwark without incurring a mixed mode surcharge. Journeys from Southeastern stations to Southwark are considered to be NR only if they include travel via Waterloo East. An example of an alternative, no touch required journey, is Erith - Woolwich Arsenal - Canning Town - Southwark.

Pink validators would not be enough because they are optional and at peak times people would be swept along without using them. A gateline will never handle both exit from one station and entry to another. They did try it at Stratford, but the fact it's gone speaks volumes about the problems it caused.

Finally, I don't think it is possible to be stranded between the two gatelines between Southwark and Waterloo East. If you had no money on the card it would always be the exit gateline which would object. When you use the entry gateline it simply continues the journey so will always let you through.

OK, there is one scenario where you could get stuck, but can anyone really envisage taking more than 10 minutes to get from one gateline to the other?

Southeastern will not let you through the gateline if you use a paper single to Southwark which the barrier retains, then claim you have no money to pay for a ticket and just want to walk through to Waterloo, by the way. Eventually I 'found' my Travelcard as I realised they wouldn't relent!

 

[MikeWh]

Southeastern will not let you through the gateline if you use a paper single to Southwark which the barrier retains, then claim you have no money to pay for a ticket and just want to walk through to Waterloo, by the way. Eventually I 'found' my Travelcard as I realised they wouldn't relent!

Hmmm, interesting. I guess the rationale is that if you're on the Jubilee line and want Waterloo then you go there. Would the LU staff let you back through their barriers to go out the other way?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think we should get a group of people together with either LU paper singles/TfL group day tickets to go through the barrier and get trapped