Oyster: same station exit and OSI

[Brucey]

Another episode in "Brucey uncovers yet more failings in the Oyster system".

I made a same station exit earlier today at Wood Lane (Zone 2). This was within 30 seconds, I would have expected the maximum fare to be deducted. Instead, £1.50 was taken. I'm not sure where this comes from as there is no £1.50 peak fare involving Zone 2.

I then proceeded onto White City, where I touched in, within 45 minutes of touching out at Wood Lane.

My final journey (to West Ruislip) was charged at £5.00 (Z1-6). It should've been £2.70 (Z2-6).

What happened is the OSI got joined (rather than the fare being refunded) and me being charged the Wood Lane - West Ruislip default fare, rather than White City - West Ruislip.

Email already fired off to the Oyster helpdesk. I'm sure they'll be pleased to hear I'll soon be leaving London so won't be uncovering more errors in the system.

 

[MikeWh]

I'll hazard a guess that the system was configured differently today because of the tube strike.

 

[Brucey]

It appears the entry charge was set at £1.50 everywhere during the strike.

Also, I've uncovered an ambiguity in the fares. Wood Lane to West Ruislip is defined as Z1-6 fare, regardless of route taken. Yet Shepherd's Bush Market or Westbourne Park to West Ruislip are charged at Z2-6. :roll:

 

[mattdickinson]

It appears the entry charge was set at £1.50 everywhere during the strike.

Also, I've uncovered an ambiguity in the fares. Wood Lane to West Ruislip is defined as Z1-6 fare, regardless of route taken. Yet Shepherd's Bush Market or Westbourne Park to West Ruislip are charged at Z2-6. :roll:

From the other stations, it is routing you via the Wood Lane - White City OSI. If you have only touched in at Wood Lane, it is routing you via Edgware Road and Notting Hill Gate.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

It appears the entry charge was set at £1.50 everywhere during the strike.

Also, I've uncovered an ambiguity in the fares. Wood Lane to West Ruislip is defined as Z1-6 fare, regardless of route taken. Yet Shepherd's Bush Market or Westbourne Park to West Ruislip are charged at Z2-6. :roll:

Surely because if you wanted to get to West Ruislip avoiding Zone 1 you would have started at White City rather than Wood Lane? Starting at Wood Lane indicates a determination to avoid the most direct route. Journeys from Shepherd's Bush Market or Westbourne Park would most likely be made via the Wood Lane/White City interchange.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Also, I've uncovered an ambiguity in the fares. Wood Lane to West Ruislip is defined as Z1-6 fare, regardless of route taken. Yet Shepherd's Bush Market or Westbourne Park to West Ruislip are charged at Z2-6. :roll:

This is sensible.

However, if I were in charge, then all of these would default to charging for a Z1-6 journey unless the Wood Lane<->White City OSI was used or the pink reader in the track-level walkway was touched

 

[bb21]

Can you even do White City - Wood Lane without leaving one station then entering the other via the gatelines?

 

[PermitToTravel]

You would be able to if I were in charge
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But yes, you can at present, by leaving one station via the track, jumping off a bridge, then entering the next via the track. I would like to propose a 10 point bonus for anyone who does this in this Saturday's London Challenge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If I'm misunderstanding you and you meant by train, then of course - change at Edgware Road and Notting Hill Gate

 

[bb21]

I meant by foot.

In that case I agree that really the default should be via Zone 1, as anyone doing the OSI hence avoiding Zone 1 can be detected through the use of gates at these stations. I can't see a route from somewhere like Shepherd's Bush Market to West Ruislip without touching anything en route avoiding Zone 1.

 

[Brucey]

I can't see a route from somewhere like Shepherd's Bush Market to West Ruislip without touching anything en route avoiding Zone 1.

Exactly. Whether you change at White City or do my route by changing at Hammersmith (touching out at the H&C station, in at the D/Picc station) then Piccadilly Line to Park Royal (touching out), walk to Hanger Lane (touch in, OSI joins up the journey) then out at West Ruislip.

This is exactly what I did from Wood Lane (and is clearly a Zone 2-6 journey). The system charged it as Zone 2-3 up to Park Royal. Then on touching out at West Ruislip, I was charged the difference for the Zone 1-6 fare. So it thinks the journey between Hanger Lane and West Ruislip involve travel through Zone 1.

Here are the details (Z1-6 = £2, Z2-6 = £1):
15:57 - 17:02 Wood Lane to West Ruislip £2.00 £4.50
17:02 Touch out, West Ruislip £0.50 £4.50
16:42 Touch in, Hanger Lane £0.50 £5.00
16:36 Touch out, Park Royal +£0.50 £5.50
16:16 Touch in, Hammersmith (District, Piccadilly lines) £0.50 £5.00
16:07 Touch out, Hammersmith (Circle, H&C lines) £0.00 £5.50
15:57 Touch in, Wood Lane £1.00 £5.50

Only having a fare defined as through Zone 1 is clearly incorrect when a route avoiding Zone 1 exists, where touches in/out en-route are mandatory.

 

[PermitToTravel]

That is indeed incorrect, but I can see why this problem has arisen. The hotline will refund you if you call them, but they will probably think you a bit of a weirdo

 

[MikeWh]

So it thinks the journey between Hanger Lane and West Ruislip involve travel through Zone 1.

Here are the details (Z1-6 = £2, Z2-6 = £1):
15:57 - 17:02 Wood Lane to West Ruislip £2.00 £4.50
17:02 Touch out, West Ruislip £0.50 £4.50
16:42 Touch in, Hanger Lane £0.50 £5.00
16:36 Touch out, Park Royal +£0.50 £5.50
16:16 Touch in, Hammersmith (District, Piccadilly lines) £0.50 £5.00
16:07 Touch out, Hammersmith (Circle, H&C lines) £0.00 £5.50
15:57 Touch in, Wood Lane £1.00 £5.50

Not quite. At each touch out the journey to that point is charged, taking account of any via points recorded. So first it was a Wood Lane to Hammersmith journey, then it was Wood Lane to Park Royal and finally it became Wood Lane to West Ruislip. The two sensible options for the final journey are either (a) walk to White City then Central line direct in which case you wouldn't touch in at Wood Lane, or (b) travel via Paddington and Notting Hill Gate. Your route is discounted because it includes two walks between stations which TfL consider makes it less attractive.

Only having a fare defined as through Zone 1 is clearly incorrect when a route avoiding Zone 1 exists, where touches in/out en-route are mandatory.

All route options are given a rating taking account of number of changes, frequency of services and distance required to walk along the way. If the rating becomes too high compared to the lowest one then it will be discarded as a possibility. Your journey is obviously only just over the allowed rating, but they have to cut off somewhere or someone will want to do Upminster to Romford via Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street.

 

[Be3G]

All route options are given a rating taking account of number of changes, frequency of services and distance required to walk along the way. If the rating becomes too high compared to the lowest one then it will be discarded as a possibility. Your journey is obviously only just over the allowed rating, but they have to cut off somewhere or someone will want to do Upminster to Romford via Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street.

It's also worth noting that these ratings and/or discarded route options change over time too – a route I used to take (which had an appropriate fare in the system) a few years ago no longer exists as an option. I haven't been brave enough to try it since, as getting a refund is quite a faff! (Not so much the requesting of it, but the actual obtainment of the refunded money.)

 

[PermitToTravel]

What happens if you make a journey for which there is no fare, e.g. Liverpool Street NR to Marylebone NR?

 

[MikeWh]

It's also worth noting that these ratings and/or discarded route options change over time too – a route I used to take (which had an appropriate fare in the system) a few years ago no longer exists as an option. I haven't been brave enough to try it since, as getting a refund is quite a faff! (Not so much the requesting of it, but the actual obtainment of the refunded money.)

I'd be very interested to know what that route is.

What happens if you make a journey for which there is no fare, e.g. Liverpool Street NR to Marylebone NR?

It depends. That particular one would probably charge two incomplete journeys because it would take so long to do*. There are some vaguely sensible options missing, mainly involving the NLL/Goblin routes. One of these days I'll try it out.


* Liverpool Street to Seven Sisters to Finsbury Park to Rayners Lane to Harrow-on-the-Hill to Marylebone being one such possibility without having to pass through a gateline.

 

[island]

What happens if you make a journey for which there is no fare, e.g. Liverpool Street NR to Marylebone NR?

The gate at Marylebone NR explodes, raining debris on everyone in the locality

 

[Brucey]

What happens if you make a journey for which there is no fare, e.g. Liverpool Street NR to Marylebone NR?

I once tried Acton Central to West Ruislip, purely to see what happened (sad, I know ).

The TfL website has no fare. I was correctly charged the Zone 2-6 fare. However I did touch a pink reader and in/out at Shepherd's Bush. I'd be interested to see what happens if you do one of these without an intermediate touch.

17:24 - 18:26 Acton Central to West Ruislip £2.70 £5.40
18:26 Touch out, West Ruislip +£4.40 £5.40
17:53 Touch in, Shepherd's Bush (Central line) £5.50 £1.00
17:52 Touch out, Shepherd's Bush [London Overground] +£5.50 £6.50
17:42 Touched pink card reader, Willesden Junction £0.00 £1.00
17:24 Touch in, Acton Central £7.10 £1.00

I'm not sure whether there is actually a fare calculated for every possible combination, but it doesn't show online or whether there is just some assumption made about journeys with no fare?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I'd be very interested to know what that route is.

It depends. That particular one would probably charge two incomplete journeys because it would take so long to do*. There are some vaguely sensible options missing, mainly involving the NLL/Goblin routes. One of these days I'll try it out.

* Liverpool Street to Seven Sisters to Finsbury Park to Rayners Lane to Harrow-on-the-Hill to Marylebone being one such possibility without having to pass through a gateline.

You could use a travelcard on a separate Oyster / on dead trees to get on the correct side of the gateline and do the journey the sensible way

 

[Be3G]

I'd be very interested to know what that route is.

You kind of answered it in the second part of your post, as it involves the GOBLIN. It's Turkey Street to Shepherd's Bush Overground via the Seven Sisters/South Tottenham OSI. If wanting to avoid the tube to Highbury on a hot or busy day, it made for a slightly more direct alternative than the still-approved route via the Hackney OSI.

 

[Brucey]

Had a reply from TfL:

Thank you for your reply.
This journey is a default Zone 1-6 journey, and the journey you describe is not a recognised alternative route.

Our fares and ticketing information is set by defining ‘reasonable routes’. This means that you will always be charged for the most reasonable route to get to and from your destination, based on the most direct route available. The only exception to this is if you take a recognised alterative route, touching the pink validators as you interchange to prove your journey.

The best way to check the cost of journeys and available alternative routes for a journey is by using our single fare finder: tfl.gov.uk/fares

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. Please contact me again if you need any further assistance or if you would prefer to talk to us about this matter, please call us on 0343 222 1234.

I have a number of issues with their reply:

1. Using their route, through Zone 1, the journey planner says the journey will take 59 minutes. My journey took 65 minutes, including a slow interchange at Hammersmith (this could have been done much quicker) and walking between the gateline/platforms at the origin/destination (which their time doesn't include). Therefore I believe that my route is actually faster.

2. There is no mention in any conditions that the concept of "reasonable route" applies. The journey was well within the 110 minute maximum journey time and has intermediate touches showing the journey did not travel through Zone 1.