London Bridge redevelopment

[BingBong50]

When the redevelopment of London Bridge is complete are both the terminus and through platforms all going to be on the same level? I gather that platform access is all going to be from below so a bit confused as to how this is going to be achieved?

Are there any detailed documents with artist impressions available anywhere?

 

[30907]

No to the first, it won't be much different from now.

As to the second, start here on Google images. It took me 10 seconds to find.
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&q=new+london+bridge+station+layout[/URL]

 

[swt_passenger]

The through platforms are higher, but their escalators are all longer. All the platforms have access from a common ground level concourse, but the terminating ones also have their existing 'end on' access route as well.

The sort of triangular space between future platform 9 (through) and future platform 10 (terminating) provides an additional circulating area, and as far as I can see that is the main route between the terminus level and the through platforms, passengers will go down to the main concourse and then up again to the through platforms.

The only detailed 'engineering drawings' I'm aware of are on Southwark council's planning website, but the images on Google linked above give a fairly reasonable idea of how it will work.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It will be interesting to see when the new platforms open how wet the passengers get whilst waiting for their trains. The canopy seems to have been designed to let water in rather than keep it out.

I did Tweet Southern to ask about it, they told me to tweet Network Rail, they didn't reply!

 

[BingBong50]

Thank you all for this information.

Will any of this development relieve the current conflict of FCC services having to cross over from the Southern side to SE and then again to cross over the down lines from Charring Cross in order to access Blackfriars.

It seems strange that some additional provision wasn't made to enable FCC services to use the flyover at New Cross Gate currently used by London Overground and a spur on to the SE lines out of New Cross or will that happen at some stage.

It will be interesting to see how FCC cope during the period when they will not be able to access London Bridge at all and will presumably approach from Elephant and Castle. A significant extension to journey times I imagine.

 

[Class377/5]

Thank you all for this information.

Will any of this relieve the current conflict of FCC services having to cross over from the Southern side to SE and then again to cross over the down lines from Charring Cross in order to access Blackfriars.

It seems strange that some additional provision wasn't made to enable FCC services to use the flyover at New Cross Gate currently used by London Overground and a spur on to the SE lines out of New Cross or will that happen at some stage.

It will be interesting to see how FCC cope during the period when they will not be able to access London Bridge at all and will presumably approach from Elephant and Castle. A significant extension to journey times I imagine.

The works allow Thameslink to be separate from Southeastern services as these show.


London Bridge West by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr


Bermondsey Fly Over by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

The original plan to divert services via New Cross from Thameslink would have enforced a reduction in services for other SE services so it has been abandoned.

However TSGN (FCC won't exist come December 2014) will still serve London Bridge with a Brighton to London Bridge off peak service with a 2tph from Brighton from 0830 until 1530 and few trains after 1730 (currently planned to be 3).

 

[jopsuk]

It will be interesting to see when the new platforms open how wet the passengers get whilst waiting for their trains. The canopy seems to have been designed to let water in rather than keep it out.

The footbridge to access the (relatively) new platforms at Cambridge is abysmal at keeping water out if there's a bit of wind with the rain. Results in water everywhere. Really poor design.

 

[Bald Rick]

It will be interesting to see when the new platforms open how wet the passengers get whilst waiting for their trains. The canopy seems to have been designed to let water in rather than keep it out.

I did Tweet Southern to ask about it, they told me to tweet Network Rail, they didn't reply!

They will get less wet than they do now if they stand towards the country end of the platforms.

Anyway the answer will be available next month when the first new pair open.

 

[Chrisgr31]

They will get less wet than they do now if they stand towards the country end of the platforms.

Anyway the answer will be available next month when the first new pair open.

Must admit the latest works leaflet which stated that the new station will have longer wider platform canopies amused me. Yes they might be longer and wider than the existing efforts but the Southern half used to have a lovely roof over most of the platforms!

Anyway as you say the answer will be known soon and I did say it will be interesting to see how wet the passengers get so they might not get wet at all.

 

[Bald Rick]

Must admit the latest works leaflet which stated that the new station will have longer wider platform canopies amused me. Yes they might be longer and wider than the existing efforts but the Southern half used to have a lovely roof over most of the platforms!

The Southern side roof covered about half the platform length, and leaked like a sieve. Opinion was divided on its loveliness!

 

[Class377/5]

The Southern side roof covered about half the platform length, and leaked like a sieve. Opinion was divided on its loveliness!

I remember doing a night shift on the low level with the snow falling and settling at the buffers.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Isn't there going to be a very large concourse below platforms too? Certainly is on most of the plans i have seen.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed, although the first part of that won't open for a couple of years.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The original plan to divert services via New Cross from Thameslink would have enforced a reduction in services for other SE services so it has been abandoned.

Just to clarify - does that mean that both the New Cross and Deptford lines will continue to be served only by SouthEastern?

And the New Cross Gate line will continue to be the only route from London Bridge that is served by Thameslink (or whatever follows Thameslink)?

 

[Class377/5]

Just to clarify - does that mean that both the New Cross and Deptford lines will continue to be served only by SouthEastern?

Yes (or least that franchise).

And the New Cross Gate line will continue to be the only route from London Bridge that is served by Thameslink (or whatever follows Thameslink)?

Yes

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thanks. That begs a couple of other questions I'm now puzzled about.

Firstly, that implies the New Cross Gate line (which already plays host to the new-ish overground services) is going to see a lot of new Thameslink services (ie. all the new ones through London Bridge). Does it have capacity for them all? Will some Southern services be withdrawn as a result?

And does that mean the SouthEastern lines will not see any service improvement as a result of the London Bridge rebuild?

 

[Barn]

The distinction between Southern and Thameslink routes will lessen anyway as the franchises will be combined. I believe some of the semi-fast Southern services using the central lines through New Cross Gate will become Thameslink ones, as Norwood Junction for example will gain some Thameslink services.

I think Southeastern services will benefit mostly from a smoother route into London Bridge as a result of fewer conflicts (both with their own services and with Thameslink) rather than significant new capacity.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks. That begs a couple of other questions I'm now puzzled about.

Firstly, that implies the New Cross Gate line (which already plays host to the new-ish overground services) is going to see a lot of new Thameslink services (ie. all the new ones through London Bridge). Does it have capacity for them all? Will some Southern services be withdrawn as a result?

The 'extra' Thameslink core services have always been intended to be provided mainly by diverting services off the existing networks, originally the balance of 'ex-Southern' and 'ex Southeastern' was going to be slightly different, but the 2012 decision by DfT (the one mainly remembered for keeping the Wimbledon/Sutton loop service as a through service) changed the routes so that 16 tph come through New Cross Gate to Thameslink, and none come from the Southeastern division through London Bridge.

The combined number of services through the London Bridge throat, split onto the four groups, terminating/Charing Cross/Cannon St/Blackfriars will probably be around 86-88 trains per hour or so - not that much different to today.

In summary, early plans (prior to 2012) were for
London Bridge through to Thameslink (18 tph)
4 tph ex Southeastern routes
14 tph ex Southern routes
Elephant & Castle through to core (6 tph)
6 tph ex Southeastern routes

Current plans (from 2012) are for
London Bridge through to Thameslink (16 tph)
16 tph ex Southern routes
Elephant & Castle through to Core (8 tph)
4tph from Southeastern routes
4 toy from Southern (Wimbledon/Sutton)

And does that mean the SouthEastern lines will not see any service improvement as a result of the London Bridge rebuild?

As said in previous answer - there will be a general improvement in pathing, but some origins will have long term alterations of terminal station, i.e. the options of Cannon St or Charing Cross will change as the routes are rationalised, with Cannon St being a 7 day terminus for certain service groups.

What is notable is that the original plans had always assumed a 10 tph total coming from the 'Southeastern' network, but apparently their 'stakeholders' never actually wanted trains from origins such as Tunbridge Wells to divert from Cannon St into the Thameslink core. The net effect of Southeastern reluctance and Wimbledon/Sutton loop loud insistence has been to shift the balance considerably from Southeastern to Southern.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't there going to be a very large concourse below platforms too? Certainly is on most of the plans i have seen.

That was what I meant by a 'common ground level concourse' [i.e. common to all platforms] in my post #3 above, although it could have been better phrased...

 

[hwl]

Thanks. That begs a couple of other questions I'm now puzzled about.

Firstly, that implies the New Cross Gate line (which already plays host to the new-ish overground services) is going to see a lot of new Thameslink services (ie. all the new ones through London Bridge). Does it have capacity for them all? Will some Southern services be withdrawn as a result?

And does that mean the SouthEastern lines will not see any service improvement as a result of the London Bridge rebuild?

All Charing Cross services stopping at London Bridge is probably the biggest improvement for SE users as there will be 2 up platforms (the new p8&9). This means there isn't the need to pick a Charing Cross OR Cannon Street service from some locations. It also adds the option to change to TL services to Blackfriars and beyond which passengers may use instead of ~Cannon Street and long walk or Northern Line etc.

 

[SF-02]

And does that mean the SouthEastern lines will not see any service improvement as a result of the London Bridge rebuild?

Not really a great deal of benefit for southeastern. Less congestion but the Greenwich line loses trains to Charing Cross.

They've only got themselves to blame though. An apathetic population on the whole and politicians that take little interest.

Is it really better to keep a Cannon Street train instead of gaining a Thameslink train that stops at far more central London stations, a few right by Cannon Street, and continues north to more stations?

It seems the south east will continue to be the neglected corner. In the coming years people in SE London will watch TfL improve Anglia services knowing they missed out on TfL taking over their own and improving the 2 tph evening timetables and unstaffed stations, while putting up with years of disruption for thameslink which ends with them getting little benefit.

 

[cle]

Overground services run at 2tph in the evenings too, still.

And I don't think SE London people are to blame for the abandonment of taking over certain routes. TPTB ddn't have the stomach for the Kent rows. A Labour Mayor I think might care less about the argument with a big Tory council. Jo Johnson's seat is nearby too but not sure if that would be a factor.

 

[transmanche]

Overground services run at 2tph in the evenings too, still.

Isn't that only after about 10pm on Gospel Oak-Barking and Euston-Watford.

Everything else is pretty much 3 or 4tph until the end of service.

 

[cle]

Isn't that only after about 10pm on Gospel Oak-Barking and Euston-Watford.

Everything else is pretty much 3 or 4tph until the end of service.

On the branches of the ELL - the Clapham Junction branch for example. And last trains on NLL and WLL too. So the whole network really.

 

[transmanche]

On the branches of the ELL - the Clapham Junction branch for example. And last trains on NLL and WLL too. So the whole network really.

Let's have a look. There are LO trains arriving at Clapham Junction every 15 mins until 22:52, then there are three more arrivals at 23:22, 23:52 and 00:21 (SuX). So it's only in the late evening that trains are running 2tph on that line. Quite different from the impression of 2tph services all evening that you were trying to give.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

All Charing Cross services stopping at London Bridge is probably the biggest improvement for SE users as there will be 2 up platforms (the new p8&9). This means there isn't the need to pick a Charing Cross OR Cannon Street service from some locations. It also adds the option to change to TL services to Blackfriars and beyond which passengers may use instead of ~Cannon Street and long walk or Northern Line etc.

There's not many trains that don't stop at London Bridge. From what you're saying I'd imagine the real benefit there is being able to split all the CHX trains across two platforms - I'd imagine that would do a lot to ease trains queuing up to get into London Bridge.

 

[Class377/5]

There's not many trains that don't stop at London Bridge. From what you're saying I'd imagine the real benefit there is being able to split all the CHX trains across two platforms - I'd imagine that would do a lot to ease trains queuing up to get into London Bridge.

Allowing better dwell times too.

 

[hwl]

There's not many trains that don't stop at London Bridge. From what you're saying I'd imagine the real benefit there is being able to split all the CHX trains across two platforms - I'd imagine that would do a lot to ease trains queuing up to get into London Bridge.

Both the up platforms will both be on the same island and the trains over the new borough market viaduct would alternate with next coming from the other platform. (ditto the situation on the down which is also an improvement as the down platforms are on different islands currently.)


Yes less queueing into London Bridge and as 377/5 says a lot longer dwell times so it will be less manic trying to get on an up CHX service which presumably makes a significant number of passengers want to avoid doing it at the moment.

Segregating the services slightly more i.e. all Greenwich into either Cannon Street will help service reliability and hence journey times as well.

 

[03_179]

It maybe a daft question, but according to the maps on page 1, will the T/L lines be a flyover or normal points?

 

[hwl]

It maybe a daft question, but according to the maps on page 1, will the T/L lines be a flyover or normal points?

Presumably the 2nd diagram?

If so flyover called the Bermondsey Dive Under, with the 2 TL tracks going over the 4 others, (The TL lines stay at the existing height but the 4 others droping down and coming back up again hence dive under rather than flyover)
Initial construction and site preparation has been going on since last summer.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's not many trains that don't stop at London Bridge. From what you're saying I'd imagine the real benefit there is being able to split all the CHX trains across two platforms - I'd imagine that would do a lot to ease trains queuing up to get into London Bridge.

Up CHX trains in the morning already alternate between two platforms, except one of them doesn't have a platform and thus the trains don't call - indeed it is half of the trains in the morning high peak hour. Most of them stop to wait time though.

The benefit is that because all trains call, the loadings will in time balance out, thus reducing the actual dwell times.

This is in addition to the benefit of avoiding conflict with TL services, which is significant.