Dawlish sea wall collapse

[Chrisgr31]

Cost to the Cornwall/Devon economy is expected to be around £1-2million per day, according to various news sources.

This would mean that if you took the upper end of £2million for 42 days the cost could be at least £84million, I say that as work can't start till the weather eases down, and other hidden costs could be factored in. Costs could be well in the £100 millions economically.

I really don't understand how these costs per day are worked out, and to an extent I think its garbage. I work in London and there have been a few occasions I cant get to work due to snow. News reports tell us the lost productivity costs the economy £x million but the reality is my target remains the same irrespective of the number of days I work, so I just need to work harder on the days after these events, and I am sure others are the same.

Those that do miss out are the tourist and retail destinations although I suspect that most tourists will still be going to the West Country because they have already paid.

 

[LateThanNever]

I really don't understand how these costs per day are worked out, and to an extent I think its garbage. I work in London and there have been a few occasions I cant get to work due to snow. News reports tell us the lost productivity costs the economy £x million but the reality is my target remains the same irrespective of the number of days I work, so I just need to work harder on the days after these events, and I am sure others are the same.

Those that do miss out are the tourist and retail destinations although I suspect that most tourists will still be going to the West Country because they have already paid.

Regret not. For those travelling independently (who are the majority) and who want to go to a restaurant but decide they cannot get there, how is the restaurant going to make up that turnover? Will you rebook 6 months later? I doubt it - and even if you did that doesn't solve the restaurant's cash flow currently!

 

[Goatboy]

Regret not. For those travelling independently (who are the majority) and who want to go to a restaurant but decide they cannot get there, how is the restaurant going to make up that turnover? Will you rebook 6 months later? I doubt it - and even if you did that doesn't solve the restaurant's cash flow currently!

I'd imagine the trains through Dawlish are filled with people spending up to £1m a day on visits to restuarants.

Not.

 

[infobleep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JbSNASjiPk

[youtube]1JbSNASjiPk[/youtube]

I think the above video of the train being covered in water is interesting. Rare to see a main line train going to slowly. Even rarer to see waves going over the top.

What is it like to drive a train in such situations? Is it scary or our you drivers so well trained and you take it in your stride so to speak?

It seems there is no video of the wall collapsing. Does anyone know when it happened?

 

[L&Y Robert]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JbSNASjiPk

[youtube]1JbSNASjiPk[/youtube]

I think the above video of the train being covered in water is interesting. Rare to see a main line train going to slowly. Even rarer to see waves going over the top.

Well, there's the case for the alternative route if ever I saw one!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Seeing that video does remind me of the TSW promo from the 1980's. Where it jsut showed floods and disasters, near to the end it shows a rake of coaches getting attacked by the waves.

 

[transmanche]

Well, there's the case for the alternative route if ever I saw one!

Meanwhile in Scotland, they chuck electricity into the mix just for fun!

Saltcoats, Ayrshire

They look like some pretty heavy duty OHLE supports too.

 

[t o m]

Interesting one here..

(Source: Dailymail)

Good to see they're still using a lookout!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd imagine the trains through Dawlish are filled with people spending up to £1m a day on visits to restaurants.

I know that restaurant prices can be quite steep in the Devon area, but I can assure you that neither my wife and I who enjoy fine food and wine have ever spent remotely like the figure that you have quoted of £1m per day on visits to restaurants when we have visited Devon...

Mind you, over the border in Padstow in Cornwall, perhaps a culinary repast for two, with wine, in the Rick Stein restaurant there may well reach that total...:roll:

 

[jopsuk]

Good to see they're still using a lookout!

It does seem a bit redundant to have got the flag out of the van! I guess he could be tasked to be especially vigilant for ground movement? Also, are lookouts first aiders?

 

[t o m]

It does seem a bit redundant to have got the flag out of the van! I guess he could be tasked to be especially vigilant for ground movement? Also, are lookouts first aiders?

I wonder what would be under the 'hazards associated with site' part of the paperwork.

Everyone has basic first aid training. There is a course to be an appointed first aider but it isn't a requirement for lookout.

 

[krus_aragon]

As a civil engineer the viaduct thing seems like a risky idea that i wouldnt personally give any time to.

I can give one example of where this approa has worked: Pen-y-clip viaduct (near Penmaenmawr on the North Wales coast line) was originally built as an emankment with sea wall, but it couldn't stand up to the weather. It was rebuilt as a viaduct, to let the waves come through underneath and crash against the big mountain of granite behind it instead.

That's not to say, of course, that what works for Pen-y-clip will definitely work for Dawlish, but there is a precedent.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd imagine the trains through Dawlish are filled with people spending up to £1m a day on visits to restuarants.

Not.

Maybe not fancy restaurants, but when I get the train to Cornwall I end up spending hundreds of pounds on accommodation, tourist attractions, pub lunches, pasties, beer etc. All facilitated by the train.

 

[Goatboy]

Maybe not fancy restaurants, but when I get the train to Cornwall I end up spending hundreds of pounds on accommodation, tourist attractions, pub lunches, pasties, beer etc. All facilitated by the train.

Quite but in February? To the tune of a million a day? If this was peak tourist season I'd agree more with the figures but most people on these trains at this time of year are us residents who will still travel but the long way round via RRB.

 

[jamesst]

Telegraph reporting that Environment Agency wouldn't protect Dawlish seawall from storms until impact on local bird life had been fully assessed.

Only in Britain...!!!

 

[broadgage]

You may need to explain that, but having a large ammount of water on the inland side could be a threat not only to the line but the properties.

My personal opinion is that if the battering stops long enough and enough concrete can be shipped in, say 6 weeks is not ridiculous. What matters is to keep the rebuild as was brigade at bay. If they are let loose, a political and wider social disaster will occur.

That is my main concern.
To build suitable modern sea defences with a new railway line thus protected, though a large and costly civil engineering project is that not that hard, just expensive.

If however the "rebuild as was brigade" are let loose, they will require a hand built structure that closely resembles the old one, being built of similar materials, and probably the old materials being re-used if they can be located.
Will planning permission be required ?
Enviromental impact assessments ?
There are bound to be rare newts or bats within sight.

 

[Rapidash]

Could people please keep in mind that there are many, many thousands of people who use this route to get from Torbay to Exeter? Until the bypass is opened (2016?) the alternative bus routes take anything from an hour to two in the peak, often on something even less comfortable than a Pacer!

So please, do remember us, the population that's bigger than Exeter itself, for we are real people as well

 

[starrymarkb]

It does seem a bit redundant to have got the flag out of the van! I guess he could be tasked to be especially vigilant for ground movement? Also, are lookouts first aiders?

Probably looking out for big waves! "Hoods up lads!"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Meanwhile in Scotland, they chuck electricity into the mix just for fun!

Saltcoats, Ayrshire

They look like some pretty heavy duty OHLE supports too.

Saltcoats uses 50kV knitting for the extra insulation

 

[yorksrob]

That is my main concern.
To build suitable modern sea defences with a new railway line thus protected, though a large and costly civil engineering project is that not that hard, just expensive.

If however the "rebuild as was brigade" are let loose, they will require a hand built structure that closely resembles the old one, being built of similar materials, and probably the old materials being re-used if they can be located.
Will planning permission be required ?
Enviromental impact assessments ?
There are bound to be rare newts or bats within sight.

Presumably it's not beyond the realms of possibility to build a modern up to date structure but perhaps cosmetically dressed in stone to remain in keeping with the landscape.

I have to say, having grown up in Kent (where we have a lot of sea walls) such structures tend to have a much longer slope at the bottom end, and a much curvier top to deflect the waves, than seems to be the case with Dawlish.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I can give one example of where this approa has worked: Pen-y-clip viaduct (near Penmaenmawr on the North Wales coast line) was originally built as an emankment with sea wall, but it couldn't stand up to the weather. It was rebuilt as a viaduct, to let the waves come through underneath and crash against the big mountain of granite behind it instead.

That's not to say, of course, that what works for Pen-y-clip will definitely work for Dawlish, but there is a precedent.

It is v weak sandstone very easily eroded by sea not granite.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Telegraph reporting that Environment Agency wouldn't protect Dawlish seawall from storms until impact on local bird life had been fully assessed.

Rightly so. Its the law.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

If an older type house is damaged/ destroyed, the reconstruction has to comply with today's building regulations.
There may be some cosmetic stonework employed, but I am sure that the reconstruction will be using up to date methods eg pouring concrete.

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite but in February? To the tune of a million a day? If this was peak tourist season I'd agree more with the figures but most people on these trains at this time of year are us residents who will still travel but the long way round via RRB.

According to station usage figures there are approx 6m station entry and exits pa on all lines west* of Exeter St Davids. Let's be favourable to the case and say a third of them are for trips that both start and finish west of Newton Abbot inclusive. So 4m trips pa are 'across the breach'.

At a cost to the economy of £1-2m per day, the lower end of the scale represents c£400m pa.

So this means each single trip across the breach generates £100 to the local economy.

Really?

Equally, it could be argued that the breach is stopping Cornwallians and Plymouthians heading east to spend their hard earned cash in the rest of England, so they have to spend it in at home instead, thereby boosting the local economy

 

[sor]

I understand that there are signalling problems in the no man's land between Dawlish and where Plymouth takes over as the signalling cables from Exeter are no more.

What would have happened if control had all moved to Didcot? I would hope network rail has redundant fibres but how redundant are they? Would there still be signals west of Exeter?

 

[pablo]

Whilst a diversionary route may or may not be required, you still have to reinstate the Dawlish protection. How much money do you have to spend?

When Mr. Brunell had that wall built he probably said to his Contractor, "Build me a good solid sea wall". and he did. Possibly, the next visit from Mr. B in his post-chaise was to sign the account off. Minions did the rest.

When the irresistable meets the immoveable, something has to give. Current thinking has moved on. Today, you would dissipate the sea swell's energy by having it ride up a slope at somewhat less than 30 degrees. Anything that reached the top meets a solid reflecting wall that sends it back into the retreating wave.

The structure is composed of massive pre-cast concrete T shaped units set to form a grid, filled and then capped with a substantial concrete slab. The toe of this is piled. The reflective wall is very substantial and set half it's height into the ground.

Such a scheme works and would protect the railway but it is mightily expensive and takes years rather than months to execute. Anything less is just begging for a repetition.

Time for the polititions to start negotiating.

 

[Mainliner]

Rare to see a main line train going to slowly. Even rarer to see waves going over the top.

I was on an ECML train a year or so ago which slowed to a crawl for a mile or two while passing severely flooded fields in N Yorkshire/S Durham. The water was lapping up against the track like waves on a beach, and it almost looked like the sea, as the water stretched back a considerable distance. When the driver got off at NCL he said he'd never seen anything like it, and nor had I. Couldn't take a picture, it was dark...

 

[sprinterguy]

Judging by a photo I've been sent, there's a second, far smaller breach opened up overnight in the sea wall on the other side of Dawlish station. Only appears to have eaten away at the footpath (which is at track height at that location) thus far so far as I can tell.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Quite but in February? To the tune of a million a day? If this was peak tourist season I'd agree more with the figures but most people on these trains at this time of year are us residents who will still travel but the long way round via RRB.

^This

I am even more of a cynic to think that the 6 week repair time offered has nothing to do with a realistic survey assessment but to simply keep those who would start to get twitchy towards Easter and the beginning of the tourist season, off their backs.

At this time of year the suggestion that a region that is very reliant on tourism is haemorrhaging money because of a break in the rail provision, is simply a complete distortion of the facts.

Doubtless a secondary line should be considered, but you'd still have the same doom-mongers arguing that a break in any public transport 'costs' them £x million per day even if the secondary route was open today - see London this week where all rail lines were still open, you'd have thought that the world had ended.

The simple fact of the matter is that we have had a fairly unprecedented series of serious weather systems throughout the UK over the early part of 2014 and we are attempting to cope as best we can - apparently though, that rhetoric doesn't sell newspapers.

 

[Goatboy]

According to station usage figures there are approx 6m station entry and exits pa on all lines west* of Exeter St Davids. Let's be favourable to the case and say a third of them are for trips that both start and finish west of Newton Abbot inclusive. So 4m trips pa are 'across the breach'.

At a cost to the economy of £1-2m per day, the lower end of the scale represents c£400m pa.

So this means each single trip across the breach generates £100 to the local economy.

Really?

Quite and thats a best case scenario based on an average entry/exit figure. It's February, it's wet, its cold. People don't really come down to Devon on holiday by train at this time of year.

The people affected are those of us who live here and work here - so we'll all be hugely inconvenienced and irriated but its hard to see where the £2m a day loss would come from. We've still got work to do, we've still got things to buy, we just need to find alternative more-hassle ways of doing it?

If it was peak tourist season I'd understand it.

But it's not.

A long diversion route via Okehampton isn't going to take 4 Intercity TPE to and from Plymouth in the event of a rare closure of the sea wall so there would still be massive disruption.

Most of the disruption we've had down here over the last 2 years has been Cowly Bridge anyway which any diversion route wouldnt have fixed!

There is a lot of bandwagoning going on. I'm not saying it wouldnt be nice to have another route with more services, of course it would. But it's hardly the 'MUST DO' people are suggesting.

 

[transmanche]

At this time of year the suggestion that a region that is very reliant on tourism is haemorrhaging money because of a break in the rail provision, is simply a complete distortion of the facts.

A spokesman for Visit Cornwall on Radio 5 Live this morning seemed to be playing down the effect of losing the rail connection, saying only 6% of tourists arrive by train anyway.

 

[sprinterguy]

I understand that there are signalling problems in the no man's land between Dawlish and where Plymouth takes over as the signalling cables from Exeter are no more.

Signalling is reported to have been restored between Plymouth and Newton Abbot yesterday evening. I do however share your concerns as signalling centres become further and further removed from the areas that they control as efficiencies are continually sought from further consolidation.