Details taken by Northern Rail?

[Justagirl]

OK, so today I got on the train with my boyfriend at his local station, there is no ticket office but there are ticket machines, however we were running late and the machines can take a long time so we decided to buy a ticket on the train, but no conductor came round.

We switched trains at Bolton, another station we both frequently travel from, with no time to buy a ticket as our first train was delayed so we would have missed our connection, again no conductor came round. We went to leave the platform at Manchester Picadilly and lined up to buy our tickets. My boyfriend in front of me in line bought his ticket, when I went to purchase mine the ticket lady asked 'same again?' And I automatically said yes, however it turns out my boyfriend had made a genuine mistake and accidentally asked for the tickets from Bolton and I hadn't heard him as there was noise in the station from people, trains etc.

We were taken aside and our details taken, does anybody know what the outcome of this Could be? I know it is an offence to travel without buying a ticket but this was a genuine mistake and we both feel awful. I didn't even realise that I'd bought the ticket from that station and I know my boyfriend would not have asked for the wrong ticket on purpose, do the company take circumstances into account? Neither of us want to end up with a criminal record for a crime we didn't even mean to commit

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . does anybody know what the outcome of this Could be?

If we are talking about travel on Northern Rail services, then it seems to me that this incident is likely to fall within the scope of their 'Failure to Pay' (FTP) penalty scheme. That Company suffers an astonishing degree of fare evasion (and I'm sure that as a regular passenger with the amount of knowledge you've already mentioned, you are aware of this).
To address that haemorrage of revenue, they have produced hundreds of posters dispalyed at their stations, and have issued thousands of FTP notices to passengers travelling without a ticket. Currently, that scheme simply offers the passenger an administrative fee of £80, which, if the passenger pays it in a timely manner, puts an end to the matter.

Who knows for how long they will continue to offer this administrative fee? At any moment they would be quite entitled to revert to Criminal proceedings!

. . . . however we were running late and the machines can take a long time so we decided to buy a ticket on the train, but no conductor came round.

. . . . at Bolton, . . . . with no time to buy a ticket as our first train was delayed so we would have missed our connection, . . .

If you find that this matter is taken forward for Prosecution, please don't use the argument that you didn't have time / were running late. It only makes you more culpable for an error for which you already appear to be culpable!

. . . the ticket lady asked 'same again?' And I automatically said yes, however it turns out my boyfriend had made a genuine mistake and accidentally asked for the tickets from Bolton and I hadn't heard him as there was noise in the station from people, trains etc.

I really don't want to know what this is all about, but if you repeat it elsewhere, then I hope you realise that you will loose every way it's interpreted. Either he lied and you couldn't hear, but you also lied to claim that you had heard. Or he made a mistake in giving the name of a nearby station (which happens daily but quite disproprtionately to the mistake of naming a further station) and you couldn't hear, but you also lied to claim that you had heard. Or you did hear, and also lied about the station you'd boarded at, and then lied again about not hearing. Or you couldn't hear something else, but still lied to claim that you heard.
Who's going to want to try to understand any of this? They will assume that this isn't the first time that you've named a closer station to your destination and that you've got away with it until now, and now you've been caught out.

If you have evidence to demonstrate that this assumption is wrong, then I assure you that I and others on here can work hard to assist you against any injustice arising from Northern's lack of ticket buying opportunities. But if not, . . . . . .

 

[Justagirl]

If you find that this matter is taken forward for Prosecution, please don't use the argument that you didn't have time / we running late. It only makes you more culpable for an error for which you alrady appear to be culpable!

I really don't want to know what this is about, but if you repeat it elsewhere, then I hope you realise that you loose either way. Either he lied and you couldn't hear, but you lied to claim that you had heard. Or he made a mistake in giving the name of a nearby station (which happens daily but quite disproprtionately to the mistake of naming a further station) and you couldn't hear, but you lied to claim that you had heard. Or you couldn't hear something else, but still lied to claim that you heard.
. . . .

We had every intention of paying the fare on the train or at he station when giving a chance, and until looking it up after I got home we were both completely unaware that the tickets had to be bought before getting on the train of possible, as long as you bought them.
To clarify, my boyfriend travels via Bolton fairly often and splits his tickets at the Bolton changeover as it's slightly cheaper that way. I didn't find out that he had said Bolton by mistake until after we were pulled aside, I didn't once lie throughout the incident.

Thank you for responding quickly, the situation is scary to me as I have no idea what to expect.

 

[bb21]

We were taken aside and our details taken, does anybody know what the outcome of this Could be?

It differs, depending on what was said while you were questioned and how strongly Northern feel about the case. You could be let off with a warning, or more commonly be asked to pay an administrative penalty if this is your first offence. If they feel particularly strong about this case they of course have the option to take the matter to the magistrates court and prosecute under either the Railway Byelaws or the Regulation of Railways Act, amongst others.

I didn't even realise that I'd bought the ticket from that station and I know my boyfriend would not have asked for the wrong ticket on purpose,

I think really only your boyfriend knows whether he deliberately asked for a short ticket. I'm glad to hear that you have faith in him, but it hardly matters to Northern what you think of him unfortunately.

I wouldn't like to comment on what was going through his mind when he asked for a ticket from Bolton, but I would just like to point out that opportunist fare evaders come in all shapes and sizes, and include many people who would never dream of doing something illegal when it comes to anything other than paying their rail fare, so it is not always easy to tell whether someone is likely to ask for a short ticket deliberately when an opportunity seemingly presents itself to "save a few bob". I would like to believe that he is innocent and it was all just a mistake, but it's not me that you will need to convince.

do the company take circumstances into account?

What circumstances do you want them to take into account? Are there any mitigating circumstances which would support the claim that it was merely a mistake? Given the fact that you both boarded at his local station, Northern might take some serious convincing that it was not a deliberate attempt at avoiding paying the correct fare.

and until looking it up after I got home we were both completely unaware that the tickets had to be bought before getting on the train of possible, as long as you bought them.

To be honest, I think this is the least of your worries the way things have developed.

To clarify, my boyfriend travels via Bolton fairly often and splits his tickets at the Bolton changeover as it's slightly cheaper that way. I didn't find out that he had said Bolton by mistake until after we were pulled aside, I didn't once lie throughout the incident.

Does he normally buy these tickets together?

 

[Justagirl]

I think really only your boyfriend knows whether he deliberately asked for a short ticket. I'm glad to hear that you have faith in him, but it hardly matters to Northern what you think of him unfortunately.

I wouldn't like to comment on what was going through his mind when he asked for a ticket from Bolton, but I would just like to point out that opportunist fare evaders come in all shapes and sizes, and include many people who would never dream of doing something illegal when it comes to anything other than paying their rail fare, so it is not always easy to tell whether someone is likely to ask for a short ticket deliberately when an opportunity seemingly presents itself to "save a few bob". I would like to believe that he is innocent and it was all just a mistake, but it's not me that you will need to convince.

What circumstances do you want them to take into account? Are there any mitigating circumstances which would support the claim that it was merely a mistake? Given the fact that you both boarded at his local station, Northern might take some serious convincing that it was not a deliberate attempt at avoiding paying the correct fare.

I understand everything you've said here, and I feel it would be difficult to prove anything. The people we were questioned by did not seem to feel too strongly about the case, in fact I was reassured that it 'won't involve the police or anything like that' and I would just have to write a letter of explanation. Do you think their attitude towards the problem would influence how Northern see it, as they recorded the incident?

 

[bb21]

You will need to wait for their letter to arrive, which should give you an opportunity to explain fully what happened. This will be your opportunity to put across your side of the story. I wouldn't take what staff said on the day seriously as to what will happen next. They just write their reports and submit them. Trust me that we have heard plenty of cases where RPIs lightly brush off possible consequences to avoid getting into difficult situations. They won't be the ones making decisions.

But you don't need to panic just yet. The good news, as DaveNewcastle has mentioned, is that Northern are quite willing to accept a financial penalty in exchange for not taking matters further provided that this is your first offence. Now I understand that it can seem unduly harsh if it was genuinely a slip of the tongue, but of course as you appreciate yourself that it may not be an easy thing to convince Northern that it was not actually a deliberate act.

As I said earlier, if you have mitigating circumstances, or other things that can give weight to your claim of a simple mistake, for example evidence to show that your boyfriend regularly purchases tickets from Bolton legally, then it may help your case. Then again if he does it regularly but illegally, it can also take you down the fast lane towards trouble, so do be careful what you say.

 

[Gathursty]

Was Darwen or Blackrod the station you began your journey at? I didn't realise there were any trains north of Bolton that terminate there (as they'd carry on to Manchester?)

Best to pay/settle asap going off many threads on here.

I think Greater Manchester's boundaries go a bit further than Bolton on all lines so you could split a bit closer to home depending on frequencies of stopping services.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Ticket inspectors usually say things like this to stop you from panicking and/or becoming violent towards them. It won't have any bearing on how the matter is resolved, which could ultimately be a criminal prosecution. Northern, however, tend not to prosecute people for first offences, instead frequently applying their own fixed penalty scheme.

 

[Justagirl]

Was Darwen or Blackrod the station you began your journey at? I didn't realise there were any trains north of Bolton that terminate there (as they'd carry on to Manchester?)

I think Greater Manchester's boundaries go a bit further than Bolton on all lines so you could split a bit closer to home depending on frequencies of stopping services.

The start station was Darwen, yes, but we had to change as we wanted to get to Picadilly and the train from Darwen doesn't stop there. Never really considered splitting anywhere else before, it just seemed the simplest way as that is the main changeover point.

Another quick question, is there any way to prove that you've bought tickets if you don't still have the actual tickets+they were paid with cash? Not sure what the case would be with that.

 

[ian959]

Another quick question, is there any way to prove that you've bought tickets if you don't still have the actual tickets+they were paid with cash? Not sure what the case would be with that.

No way of proving it unless you happen to be caught on CCTV and without proof, that is the tickets themselves, then the case would remain one of simply being unable to produce a valid ticket when asked to do so. If you are entertaining the idea to use this as an excuse to avoid the penalty you are likely to incur, you might want to rethink that strategy.

 

[Justagirl]

If you are entertaining the idea to use this as an excuse to avoid the penalty you are likely to incur, you might want to rethink that strategy.

I am more than willing to pay the penalty, I am just scared the matter will end up going to court. Do you think it wise to offer an out-of-court settlement when I write my letter? It is both our first offences.

 

[Gathursty]

Bromley Cross is the first station you reach within Greater Manchester for future reference then, not Bolton and I'm almost certain every train from Darwen stops there.

Good luck with sorting out your penalty.

 

[northwichcat]

We were taken aside and our details taken

Why did they say you were taken aside?

There's two possible reasons:
1. Bolton is a staffed station so if you started your journey at Bolton you should have purchased a ticket before you boarded the train. This is something a lot of people have been allowed to get away with but Northern are clamping down on now.
2. They might have had Revenue Protection Inspectors in operation at Bolton. In which case you wouldn't have got on to the platforms at Bolton without a ticket, unless you alighted another service without a ticket.

If it's the first reason then my understanding is Northern will keep your details on file and if a second offence occurs then you'll be fined £80.

If it's the second reason then they'll probably ask you to pay the difference in fares plus an £80 admin charge. You'll not legally obliged to pay that but if you don't then you'll be taken to court for fare evasion and you'll be very likely to lose your case.

 

[Justagirl]

If it's the second reason then they'll probably ask you to pay the difference in fares plus an £80 admin charge. You'll not legally obliged to pay that but if you don't then you'll be taken to court for fare evasion and you'll be very likely to lose your case.

This is the case, I am very willing to pay the money as I know it was a stupid and careless mistake, if I make this clear in my letter am I likely to avoid court?

 

[island]

It's a criminal offence to join a train without a ticket at a station where facilities to do so have been provided and are in working order. Being late, arriving just as the train comes in, etc. etc. are not excuses. Additionally, asking for a ticket from a station that you did not join at in order to get a cheaper fare is a more serious offence. In this instance, you seem to have paid half the amount you should have paid.

If you have not come to the attention of Northern Rail before, they may, but are not obliged to, deal with the matter out of court by way of an administrative penalty of £87.90 each. This may be mentioned in the letter you receive.

 

[ian959]

This is the case, I am very willing to pay the money as I know it was a stupid and careless mistake, if I make this clear in my letter am I likely to avoid court?

When you get the letter from Northern Rail, just give them your version of events, admit that it was a stupid error and that you have well and truly learned your lesson and offer to settle the matter out of court. The most likely scenario is that as long as it is the first time you have come to their attention, you will incur an £80 fixed penalty and the cost of the fare avoided. Pay that when you are advised to and the matter will never get near a court.

That said, Northern Rail could if they so desire take the matter to court no matter what.

 

[Justagirl]

Additionally, asking for a ticket from a station that you did not join at in order to get a cheaper fare is a more serious offence.

I know there is pretty much no way of proving that it was a mistake on my boyfriend's part, but as it was recorded that I was just given the same again without knowing that he bought the wrong ticket I am hoping this will be taken into account for my sake. I didn't even have any idea why I was pulled aside until this was explained to me, which the staff made clear in their notes. I guess it's just a waiting game now.

 

[Ediswan]

Thinking about this. If the barrier staff had reason to believe the request for the first ticket was suspect. Asking "Same again ?" of the second passenger would seem to be an odd thing to do.

As for the second passenger not having heard the first's request. Why would they need to if they knew, or thought they knew, what ticket was being requested.

 

[455driver]

Thinking about this. If the barrier staff had reason to believe the request for the first ticket was suspect. Asking "Same again ?" of the second passenger would seem to be an odd thing to do.

Easy way of finding out if they are travelling together!

As for the second passenger not having heard the first's request. Why would they need to if they knew, or thought they knew, what ticket was being requested.

If the second one hadnt heard what the first one said why would they just say yes?
If they hadnt heard then the second person would be expected to say no or at least ask for the question to be clarified!

 

[Justagirl]

If the second one hadnt heard what the first one said why would they just say yes?
If they hadnt heard then the second person would be expected to say no or at least ask for the question to be clarified!

We travelled from the same start station, exactly the same journey, so I naturally assumed that he had bought the ticket from that station.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Easy way of finding out if they are travelling together!

Yes.

If the second one hadnt heard what the first one said why would they just say yes?
If they hadnt heard then the second person would be expected to say no or at least ask for the question to be clarified!

No.

 

[455driver]

We travelled from the same start station, exactly the same journey, so I naturally assumed that he had bought the ticket from that station.

Which is quite a reasonable assumption for you to make, I would probably have done the same, although if I was in front in the queue I would probably have paid for both tickets at the same time, me being the way I am.

I was more looking at it from the RPIs point of view, he wouldnt have known for sure where you had started from or whether you were travelling together, asking the questions in the way he did would confirm several things very easily.

Nothing to do except wait for the letter but you might want to write down what actually happened now so you can have some notes ready, it can take a few months for the letter to arrive.

 

[SussexMan]

JustAGirl: Did your boyfriend actually get sold the ticket he asked for (i.e.from Bolton)? Did you get sold the "same again" ticket or were you both pulled aside by the RPI before you were both sold the tickets?

 

[Justagirl]

JustAGirl: Did your boyfriend actually get sold the ticket he asked for (i.e.from Bolton)? Did you get sold the "same again" ticket or were you both pulled aside by the RPI before you were both sold the tickets?

We were both sold the tickets
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing to do except wait for the letter but you might want to write down what actually happened now so you can have some notes ready, it can take a few months for the letter to arrive.

I have written an account of what happened, however I am due to move into a rented flat for university during the summer and I'm worried I won't get the letter (or be able to get hold of it and respond to it in time) if the letter could take a few months to arrive. Would it be advisable to contact northern rail after I move in if I have still not received the letter?

 

[455driver]

Would it be advisable to contact northern rail after I move in if I have still not received the letter?

Yes, using any reference number you have been given.

 

[Justagirl]

Yes, using any reference number you have been given.

I was not given a reference number, is it vital that I have one?

 

[bb21]

I was not given a reference number, is it vital that I have one?

You could try and get in touch with Northern by either writing to let them know or ringing them, but obviously not yet as it may take time for reports from the RPI to reach the prosecutions department.

 

[455driver]

I was not given a reference number, is it vital that I have one?

No it isnt vital, it was just to make it easier for NR to amend the information held but you havent had the letter yet so wont have a reference number yet, sorry.

If there is going to be somebody at your old address who can pass letters on then it wont be an issue anyway.

 

[Justagirl]

Thank you all for your help, a question I would like to ask: is £400 an appropriate amount to offer (each) for an out of court settlement?

 

[455driver]

Dont offer anything yet, wait for the letter, say how sorry you are etc and make it clear that you now know about purchasing a ticket before starting your journey and this incident wont happen again and see if they offer it to you (they normally do for a first offence, very rarely for a second etc).

If you offer it now then they may get a scent of desperation on your part and go to court anyway.

Just sit tight and wait, horrible as it is.