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Pushing or pulling.

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1018509

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During my days as a carriage examiner I always found that pushing a barrow load of brake blocks was easier than pulling because, I think, the triangle of forces dictates that when pushing you are pushing into the ground and easily overcome friction and so roll along whereas in pulling there is quite an effort going into pulling the load up rather than along so wasting effort.

Has any research been done into whether this would apply to locomotives, as the coupler seems to be above the wheel centre and therefore pulling would appear to be less economical than pushing?

Further thought on this leads me to think that steam locos, with their bigger driving wheels, the opposite would be true.
 
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Beveridges

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Pushing is more powerful than pulling which is why bankers attatch to the rear and not the front
 

DownSouth

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During my days as a carriage examiner I always found that pushing a barrow load of brake blocks was easier than pulling because, I think, the triangle of forces dictates that when pushing you are pushing into the ground and easily overcome friction and so roll along whereas in pulling there is quite an effort going into pulling the load up rather than along so wasting effort.

Has any research been done into whether this would apply to locomotives, as the coupler seems to be above the wheel centre and therefore pulling would appear to be less economical than pushing?
The dynamics of a rail locomotive (and of a train) are very different to that of a flexible human body pushing a wheelbarrow, so you can't assume it also hold true for a locomotive.

The difference with a wheelbarrow is entirely down to the inefficiency of using your arms (connected to the body well above the centre of mass) to pull a load behind you. If a wheelbarrow is stuck, pulling backwards would actually be the best method as the last thing you would want is pushing it down to add more friction.

The reason pulling works with a locomotive is that it doesn't require the load to be help up like a wheelbarrow does, all the vertical work is done by the wheels on the 'other' vehicle holding it a fixed distance above the rails. And yes, while the coupler is usually above the height of the wheels that is nearly irrelevant thanks to the rigidity of a locomotive (relative to the human musculo-skeletal system at least) and the mass of all rail vehicles being high enough for the downward force due to gravity to easily cancel out any torque and have the couplers pulling horizontally - so long as the couplers are the same height above the rail at least.

Were you to try moving a vehicle supported at both ends (i.e. a car or a rail wagon) instead of a wheelbarrow, you would find that the ideal situation would be to push or pull in a horizontal direction as a rail coupling does. To push a heavier vehicle horizontally would mean lining up your arms with your centre of mass (i.e. getting the back horizontal) to allow your glutes and quads to do the hard work, while pulling would ideally be done using a torso harness instead of putting all the force through the shoulders and collarbone. Once you start getting really heavy stuff (e.g. the guys who pull buses or locomotives for show) you will see pulling is the preferred way.

Pushing is more powerful than pulling which is why bankers attatch to the rear and not the front
No, bankers attach to the rear for the sake of operational convenience.

It was at times normal for helpers to go on the front at certain mountain passes in the western USA before trains got long enough for distributed traction to become necessary for train handling purposes (i.e. preventing string-lining and run-ins). Helpers are not used as much these days, the operational inefficiency of the practice led to its demise in favour of giving the trains enough power for the whole journey.

If performance was really an issue they would put the extra loco on the front of the train for the whole trip to benefit from sharper performance away from stops and up other smaller hills, no freight trains in Britain being long enough for distributed traction to become necessary.
 

Beveridges

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No, bankers attach to the rear for the sake of operational convenience.

It was at times normal for helpers to go on the front at certain mountain passes in the western USA before trains got long enough for distributed traction to become necessary for train handling purposes (i.e. preventing string-lining and run-ins). Helpers are not used as much these days, the operational inefficiency of the practice led to its demise in favour of giving the trains enough power for the whole journey.

There are also less "very" heavy freights now than there used to be
 

zn1

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i guess that with express units with the power in the centre its the best of both worlds, pulling and pushing the coaches in the set...thats my thinking...having power at either end also works perfectly - 150 odd hst train sets cant be wrong in that respect....best of both worlds, inner sub units 507,508,313,314,315 etc
 

D7666

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Pushing is more powerful than pulling which is why bankers attatch to the rear and not the front

I can only assume your M.Sc. you sign with is not in engineering nor anything where you studied learned and retained the laws of mechanics ............

--
Nick
 
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fsmr

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From a safety point though, as has been proved in recent accidents especially with a high centre of gravity diesel electric loco, having the weight up front has some benefit during a derailment or head on impact, and provides some protection for the following passenger stock in terms of absorbing the impact and any kinetic momentum energy from the locos weight being in front and not pushing through the pax stock

Bankers working say the Lickey or Binegar/Masbury as has been mentioned didn't couple on and just buffered up to the guards van and then dropped off at the summit without the train being banked having to stop . The tractive pushing force of the banker was then absorbed through the buffers gradually reducing up the train so the strain on the front wagons drawbar and couplers was much reduced being just the lead loco rather than being the full tractive effort of the pilot and main loco which in the case of Fowlers Lickey banker "Big Bertha" was not insignificant

Here she is at work

[youtube]ja1gPyIszqc[/youtube]


And a bit more about working bankers on the Lickey

[youtube]rXD659VTJvg[/youtube]
 
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jopsuk

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From a safety point though, as has been proved in recent accidents especially with a high centre of gravity diesel electric loco, having the weight up front has some benefit during a derailment or head on impact, and provides some protection for the following passenger stock in terms of absorbing the impact and any kinetic momentum energy from the locos weight being in front and not pushing through the pax stock
Other than the Polmont disaster, which will have been 30 yrs ago this coming July, have their actually been any recent incidents where either it was concluded that the crash was made worse because the train was being pushed or it was suggested that it would have been (but the train was being hauled)?
 

colchesterken

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It dont work on the toy train set.every time it goes round curve derailment. good job toy carrages dont get damaged
I know it is all about weight but I doubt you could add enough pennies to hold them on the track for the loco to still push the load
Just means lota of shunting
 

455driver

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Thats because train set curves are ridiculously sharp compared to real ones, if you had prototypical curves on your model railway then you would only get a circle of track in about 3 houses, not very practical.

My lads have a scale length Pendolino and a 91+10 coaches and they are both happy to be pushed around 2nd radius curves even though I laid them!



Incidentally I have never had any luck pushing a woman but have had limited success pulling them!
Or is that not what you meant! :lol:
 

edwin_m

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Other than the Polmont disaster, which will have been 30 yrs ago this coming July, have their actually been any recent incidents where either it was concluded that the crash was made worse because the train was being pushed or it was suggested that it would have been (but the train was being hauled)?

Having a heavy loco at the back of the train sets up a compressive force if the front is derailed, which makes jack-knifing or telescoping of the train more likely. This is especially so if the loco is underbraked compared with the coaches, as class 47s were and still are. There is also the rather obvious point that a DVT or MU is lighter than a loco so more likely to be derailed if an obstruction gets underneath it.

However in practice I suspect neither factor makes much difference. Certainly the almost total replacement of loco-hauled trains by MUs hasn't been accompanied by any increase in accidents or casualties - the opposite in fact, suggesting that any increase in likelihood of derailment is outweighed by the many other safety improvements made in the meantime.

The only subsequent accident I can think of where the leading coach of a push-pull was derailed was Great Heck. However this would have been a relatively minor incident had not there been a crossover that diverted the derailed DVT foul of the opposite track, and a heavy coal train approaching at that exact moment. I guess it is also possible that Hatfield might have been worse if the loco had been trailing.
 

jopsuk

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Great Heck was, as you note, a truly tragic set of coincidences, but yes, may have been slightly less serious had the loco been on the front. Hatfield? Very very hard to say- did the official investigations even raise that "what if?".

As you note, any modern train is invariably a unit train with distributed traction. But we continue to have 125mph DVT trains on the ECML, 110mph ones on the GEML and WCML, even 100mph ones on the Chiltern main line.

As for model trains? It isn't just the tight curves. Model trains also lack the sophisticated buffers, bogies and suspension found even on 1970s real world stock.
 

DownSouth

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i guess that with express units with the power in the centre its the best of both worlds, pulling and pushing the coaches in the set...thats my thinking...having power at either end also works perfectly - 150 odd hst train sets cant be wrong in that respect....best of both worlds, inner sub units 507,508,313,314,315 etc
The thing with multiple units which makes various arrangements possible is that the couplers are so rigid that they effectively operate as single vehicles with selected axles driven, even the electric units with some vehicles powered and some trailer.

The arrangement of the HST is somewhere halfway between a multiple unit and a loco-hauled train using distributed traction. The couplers have enough slack that the rear power car has to operate at partial power to avoid causing a very uncomfortable ride for the passengers.

Put a driver who's only ever driven multiple units in charge of a long freight train (a properly long one, not the short ones you see in Britain) without any training the result wouldn't be pretty. Even if they had learned some of the theory in their training, driving multiple units would have given them absolutely no experience with train handling.
 

Taunton

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Other than the Polmont disaster, which will have been 30 yrs ago this coming July, have their actually been any recent incidents where either it was concluded that the crash was made worse because the train was being pushed or it was suggested that it would have been (but the train was being hauled)?
There were a couple I recall, one in Lincolnshire, where a classic dmu formed Motor + Driving Trailer got into a serious overturning where it was operating driving trailer leading.

The Great Heck Class 91 accident was also looked at in this light.

There was a longstanding Board of Trade/government restriction going back many years which restricted propelled vehicles to two, for safety reasons, which accounts for various stock formations, such as SR 4-car units from the 1960s having one power car with one or two trailers ahead, but no more. It took a lot of research to demonstrate that this could be removed.

Put a driver who's only ever driven multiple units in charge of a long freight train (a properly long one, not the short ones you see in Britain) without any training the result wouldn't be pretty.
Starting, if it was a traditional freight train, with a punch on the nose from the guard who had been back in the van subjected to it all!
 
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edwin_m

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Great Heck was, as you note, a truly tragic set of coincidences, but yes, may have been slightly less serious had the loco been on the front. Hatfield? Very very hard to say- did the official investigations even raise that "what if?".

As you note, any modern train is invariably a unit train with distributed traction. But we continue to have 125mph DVT trains on the ECML, 110mph ones on the GEML and WCML, even 100mph ones on the Chiltern main line.

As for model trains? It isn't just the tight curves. Model trains also lack the sophisticated buffers, bogies and suspension found even on 1970s real world stock.

I read the Hatfield report fairly recently and I don't recall any discussion of the effect of the formation. Don't have time to check now.

As to model railways, some things scale as the square or the cube of the basic scale, and unless you've gone to the trouble of providing your own model planet gravity won't scale at all. So there is very little to learn from them in this respect.
 

jopsuk

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There was a longstanding Board of Trade/government restriction going back many years which restricted propelled vehicles to two, for safety reasons, which accounts for various stock formations, such as SR 4-car units from the 1960s having one power car with one or two trailers ahead, but no more.

They'd clearly decided it was OK by 1966 when they introduced the 4TC, having experimented with the 6TC, as formations with those happily had 8 carriages propelled.
 

Taunton

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The Bournemouth units were indeed the start of the concept, which was regarded as under review for some time afterwards, it may even have operated under some derogation from the established standards. Prior to this there had been a lot of trials, mainly with a Class 37 and about 10 Mk 1 vehicles, including one that had a driving cab added.

I always wondered why there was so much effort put into the unique push-pull concept of the Bournemouth trains rather than just electrifying the relatively short extra distance on to Weymouth and using normal stock.
 

D7666

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The Bournemouth units were indeed the start of the concept, which was regarded as under review for some time afterwards, it may even have operated under some derogation from the established standards. Prior to this there had been a lot of trials, mainly with a Class 37 and about 10 Mk 1 vehicles, including one that had a driving cab added.


I think possibly you are a bit out of sequence on the real time line there.

SR push-pull had two sets of proving trials but the first proved push-pull. The 1960-or-so tests with assorted formations of 73s/Ceps/MLVs proved the 90 mph push-pull concept once and for all, allowed 4Cigs with their intermediate motor coaches, and included the concept of what later became Rep/TC and 74/TC operation. A second set of SR trials about 1965 was about establishing the control system, with D6580 etc, about adapting Blue Star with SR 27way, and braking, and heating and lighting and all .

The late 1960s trials with the 37 (and IIRC a 47 too) was also about the control system, and not about 90 mph or other high speed push pull. AFAIK these took place after TC/Rep operation had already started so could not have influenced it. There was no need to reprove the speed trials, but AFAIK all about getting the simplest modification of Blue Star through loose (as opposed to fixed sets) conventionally braked loco hauled stock as a cheap mod rather than the more complex SR system. These were generic trials, although they contributed to what became Edinburgh Glasgow push-pull with 27s i.e. Blue Star cabled LH stock, and sometimes it had been mis-interpreted the tests were specific to ScR needs, but were not.


PS - wasn't the test driving car the same car later 975081 "Hermes", basically a LH Mk.1 fitted with a SR type cab but never an SR EMU car in any shape or form ?

--
Nick
 
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Lockwood

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Incidentally I have never had any luck pushing a woman but have had limited success pulling them!
Or is that not what you meant! :lol:

I've always found the opposite to be true.

(inb4 taking a throwaway joke as a serious admission of domestic violence)
 

1018509

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The dynamics of a rail locomotive (and of a train) are very different to that of a flexible human body pushing a wheelbarrow, so you can't assume it also hold true for a locomotive.

The difference with a wheelbarrow is entirely down to the inefficiency of using your arms (connected to the body well above the centre of mass) to pull a load behind you. If a wheelbarrow is stuck, pulling backwards would actually be the best method as the last thing you would want is pushing it down to add more friction.

The reason pulling works with a locomotive is that it doesn't require the load to be help up like a wheelbarrow does, all the vertical work is done by the wheels on the 'other' vehicle holding it a fixed distance above the rails. And yes, while the coupler is usually above the height of the wheels that is nearly irrelevant thanks to the rigidity of a locomotive (relative to the human musculo-skeletal system at least) and the mass of all rail vehicles being high enough for the downward force due to gravity to easily cancel out any torque and have the couplers pulling horizontally - so long as the couplers are the same height above the rail at least.

Were you to try moving a vehicle supported at both ends (i.e. a car or a rail wagon) instead of a wheelbarrow, you would find that the ideal situation would be to push or pull in a horizontal direction as a rail coupling does. To push a heavier vehicle horizontally would mean lining up your arms with your centre of mass (i.e. getting the back horizontal) to allow your glutes and quads to do the hard work, while pulling would ideally be done using a torso harness instead of putting all the force through the shoulders and collarbone. Once you start getting really heavy stuff (e.g. the guys who pull buses or locomotives for show) you will see pulling is the preferred way.


No, bankers attach to the rear for the sake of operational convenience.

It was at times normal for helpers to go on the front at certain mountain passes in the western USA before trains got long enough for distributed traction to become necessary for train handling purposes (i.e. preventing string-lining and run-ins). Helpers are not used as much these days, the operational inefficiency of the practice led to its demise in favour of giving the trains enough power for the whole journey.

If performance was really an issue they would put the extra loco on the front of the train for the whole trip to benefit from sharper performance away from stops and up other smaller hills, no freight trains in Britain being long enough for distributed traction to become necessary.
I'm not talking about wheelbarrows here but heavy drop-side 4 wheeled barrows with inflatable tyres.
 

Welshman

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Great Heck was, as you note, a truly tragic set of coincidences, but yes, may have been slightly less serious had the loco been on the front.

I agree with you it was a tragic set of coincidences, and while I haven't had time to check the official report, I seem to remember it found no overwhelming conclusive evidence that the aftermath might have been less serious if the loco was on the front.

Indeed, and again, I'm happy to be corrected, I seem to remember there was a hint that the damage to the coaches behind might have been even more serious had the loco been leading, as its weight would have meant it did not absorb as much of the energy of the collision as the lighter dvt did.
 

daikilo

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I think possibly you are a bit out of sequence on the real time line there.

SR push-pull had two sets of proving trials but the first proved push-pull. The 1960-or-so tests with assorted formations of 73s/Ceps/MLVs proved the 90 mph push-pull concept once and for all, allowed 4Cigs with their intermediate motor coaches, and included the concept of what later became Rep/TC and 74/TC operation. A second set of SR trials about 1965 was about establishing the control system, with D6580 etc, about adapting Blue Star with SR 27way, and braking, and heating and lighting and all .

The late 1960s trials with the 37 (and IIRC a 47 too) was also about the control system, and not about 90 mph or other high speed push pull. AFAIK these took place after TC/Rep operation had already started so could not have influenced it. There was no need to reprove the speed trials, but AFAIK all about getting the simplest modification of Blue Star through loose (as opposed to fixed sets) conventionally braked loco hauled stock as a cheap mod rather than the more complex SR system. These were generic trials, although they contributed to what became Edinburgh Glasgow push-pull with 27s i.e. Blue Star cabled LH stock, and sometimes it had been mis-interpreted the tests were specific to ScR needs, but were not.


PS - wasn't the test driving car the same car later 975081 "Hermes", basically a LH Mk.1 fitted with a SR type cab but never an SR EMU car in any shape or form ?

--
Nick
You must be older than me or well read! Agree with that

What must be understood of banker operations is that 1) the wheels are working on clean rail, 2) the banker is actually pushing say half or less of the train as the lead loco is pulling the rest. In fact, it is lightening the load on the lead engine thus balancing its capability against the incline and minimising the risk of slippage.

I am puzzled as to how the maths could be better if said banker loco was added on the front. If someone can explain, a formula would help, please, and leave out the wheelbarrow and a baby buggy in sand on the beach (been there, done that).
 

Taunton

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What must be understood of banker operations is that 1) the wheels are working on clean rail, 2) the banker is actually pushing say half or less of the train as the lead loco is pulling the rest. In fact, it is lightening the load on the lead engine thus balancing its capability against the incline and minimising the risk of slippage.
Wasn't always "half or less". In steam days the train loco could sometimes seize their chance to 'take it easy' while the banker strove to keep things going.

Amusing story about this, actually the other way round, from the USA during the steam/diesel transition. Brand new, typically US multi-unit diesels were being tested on heavy freights, and on this occasion had some important officials on board observing. Came to the bottom of the substantial hill, and a big steam banker came on the rear, as normal. Off they set, but the train was making little more than walking pace, despite the diesels being in full throttle. Heads look back, then the chief quietly goes down the ladder and drops onto the ballast on the outside of a curve. Train goes another train length. Suddenly there is a shove from behind, smoke and steam piled high from the rear of the train, and a marked increase in speed. When they stop at the top the chief walks back forward. "That's one crew who will take their share in future ....."
 

jopsuk

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Sounds apocryphal? After all, the huge American steam locos, certainly by the time of transition, were mainly either mechanically fed or oil fired.
 

DownSouth

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Sounds apocryphal? After all, the huge American steam locos, certainly by the time of transition, were mainly either mechanically fed or oil fired.
Still plenty easy to slack off with though.

Around the time of transition in the USA there was a lot of resentment for the new diesels among the older steam crews over fears they would lose their jobs. It's worth noting that US diesels had standardised equipment for multiple unit working built in from day one, while steam there did not.
 

zn1

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i heartiy downsouth, with regards to driving units, freight and trip work, all are completely different animals to control, i have spent years driving loose coupled on preserved, fitted and unfitted, close and loose coupled wagons,....the differences are immense, on wet/dry and greasy rails..etc..and when u have a brake van full of punters its even harder...it takes time to learn...the mainline and preserved all share one thing, the man at the front has to learn his craft.. so i know exactly what you are saying...a unit is literally bolted together now..its litteraly one vehicle in essence...with bar coupled units...again a different animal to drive and master
 

cjmillsnun

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Pushing is more powerful than pulling which is why bankers attatch to the rear and not the front

I'd disagree with that. It's easier for a banker to push solely because it can slow down after the banking to let the train get away without stopping. If a banker was attached to the front, the train would have to stop for it to be detached.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Great Heck was, as you note, a truly tragic set of coincidences, but yes, may have been slightly less serious had the loco been on the front. Hatfield? Very very hard to say- did the official investigations even raise that "what if?".

As you note, any modern train is invariably a unit train with distributed traction. But we continue to have 125mph DVT trains on the ECML, 110mph ones on the GEML and WCML, even 100mph ones on the Chiltern main line.

As for model trains? It isn't just the tight curves. Model trains also lack the sophisticated buffers, bogies and suspension found even on 1970s real world stock.

Also the weight isn't to scale either. If the weight was proportional to the real thing, there would be a lot more bearing down on the rails of the model.
 
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