Trains with insufficient announcements

[TUC]

Given the regular comments on trains with too many announcements, its worth highlighting that there are some with not enough announcements.

After travelling from Leeds to Selby on Northern Rail recently my wife commented on how confusing it was given that there were a number of stations for which no announcement was given.

Since then I've made a point of listening out and it is indeed a mixed feast on what gets announced and what doesn't. On some rural stations with poor lighting its plain impossible to see from the train which station is.

Just why there is such inconsistency seems puzzling. It can't be because the PA system isn't working because the announcements are made at other stops. It can't be because the train staff are busy with passengers because the train is fairly empty by the time it reaches these stops.

Is there a general requirement/expectation for all stations to be announced?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Considering we do Revenue etc etc as well as announcements sometimes we just don't get to the pa in time alse depends on the area. This side for instance TfGM like announcements where Merseyrail prefer Revenue. I do my best to announce the majority of stations but that isn't always possible. Especially on a 323.

 

[Gathursty]

The Penzance-Aberdeen, Glasgow-Mallaig, Inverness-Wick, Heart of Wales, Cambrian and Cumbrian Coast line (Preston/Lancaster-Carlisle services) have the problem of too many stations to list and the requirement to repeat it in Welsh would cause some people's minds to wander off mid-flow.

I don't know whether it is a problem with the recording equipment or the guard/driver but I've found it really difficult to hear some of my Northern Rail journeys calling points. An example is hearing 'Zee Hill, ... Fold, Afton'.

 

[Anvil1984]

On a Leeds to Selby you'd be lucky to have an announcement leaving Leeds, arriving South Milford and Selby (possibly Micklefield). There's less than 4 minutes between some of the station.

Train departs Leeds, make announcement and commence full check if you've taken over service, 7 minutes to Cross Gates, You'll probably get half done

Cross Gates to Garforth 5 minutes tops, probably get initial full check done and have to sell tickets from Cross Gates due to part time booking office

Garforth - East Garforth about 90 seconds, maybe squeeze in 1 ticket

East Garforth to Micklefield 3 minutes, usually someone has sat right at the very front so you have to wal length of the train to find out they had a pass in the first place, Metro Boundary so majority of passengers get off here

South Milford and Selby are pretty straight forward

 

[LateThanNever]

The Penzance-Aberdeen, Glasgow-Mallaig, Inverness-Wick, Heart of Wales, Cambrian and Cumbrian Coast line (Preston/Lancaster-Carlisle services) have the problem of too many stations to list and the requirement to repeat it in Welsh would cause some people's minds to wander off mid-flow.

I don't know whether it is a problem with the recording equipment or the guard/driver but I've found it really difficult to hear some of my Northern Rail journeys calling points. An example is hearing 'Zee Hill, ... Fold, Afton'.

In my experience most Cross Country stops are announced - even with the long list of stations. But why on earth are there not pre-recorded announcements that play automatically - excluding if possible the suspicious items, taking every belonging with you, and minding the gap (though minding the DROP at some stations might be appreciated!) - which is 'overidable' by the guard who has the time and opportunity to make his own announcements. South West Trains seem make a passable job at this...

 

[Mugby]

There was a time when no passenger stock had PA and the railway and the people who used it survived for almost a hundred and fifty years somehow. Do people really need to be nannied to this extent?

Trains working east from Leeds for example, are the people who travel daily to Cross Gates, Garforth and Micklefield incapable of knowing their stops without being told?

 

[Welshman]

Perhaps there were not as many unstaffed stations in those days, and usually a porter on the platform to call-out the name of the station when the train stopped. Also, as the trains were not air-conditioned, there might even be a window open in the carriage or vestibule[when you had to open the window to open the door], which allowed the outside voice to be heard more clearly.

Whenever I've used Northern Trains on the Calder Valley line, I've felt they've got it right - no pre-recorded announcements about minding the gap or checking you've not left anything behind on alighting, but just a clear, human voice, announcing the station name as the train enters the platform.

 

[EM2]

Never heard a PA announcement, nor a shout from the platform, in many years of using slammers from Kent. Never missed a stop.
Only hear announcements on unrefurbished GA Metros for Stratford and Liverpool Street. No other stations are announced. Still never missed a stop.

 

[kevconnor]

Not in this country but a good few years ago I was travelling from Dublin to Tralee the train from Mallow to Tralee was Craven Stock which, due to their age, didn't have any PA system, The journey only lasts a few stops but as the conductor came on Revenue checks he would announce the next stop. Not something I am sure is possible for many areas but a nice touch none the less.

 

[dvboy]

Wolverhampton-Walsall and Cross City lines seem to be void of announcements, or even if you do get them they are difficult to hear.

 

[Fincra5]

We have too many!!!! They ask us guards to do them too... hard to find a place when blooming sonya cuts in every minute!

 

[afyutr]

Best announcements - Barcelona Metro. Catchy tune, female and male voices for 'next stop' and station name. Strangely intoxicating.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The valley lines around cardiff are funny when it comes to announcements. Quite a lot of them in and around the Cardiff stations, but hardly any when you get further up the valleys. Also you tend to notice when things like passenger surveys are being done, announcements will be made for all stops (which usually never happens).

 

[Qwerty133]

some guards working the 17:18 Leicester to Birmingham neglect to inform passengers that the train is longer than the platform at some stations, even better was the day when we heard 'can passengers for South Wigston Narborough and Hinckley, please ensure they are in the correct portion of the train to alight at these stations' without saying what the correct portion is, or the day of 'can passengers for Narborough Nuneaton and Coleshill please ensure they are seated in the front 3 coaches, I repeat can passengers for South Wigston Narborough and Coleshill please ensure they are seated in the front 4 coaches, this is due to a short platform at these stations'.

 

[user15681]

But why on earth are there not pre-recorded announcements that play automatically - excluding if possible the suspicious items, taking every belonging with you, and minding the gap (though minding the DROP at some stations might be appreciated!)

Some trains do have them. SE 375s seem to have them all, I know that. Obvious announcements such as destination, calling points, stops where service divides, stops where you can only alight from certain points, announcements about taking items with you and suspicious behaviour/items, mind the gap (I think) and even automated delay announcements. I have heard once an automated "This train is being delayed due to congestion ahead", so there's the ability to do it.

 

[TUC]

On a Leeds to Selby you'd be lucky to have an announcement leaving Leeds, arriving South Milford and Selby (possibly Micklefield). There's less than 4 minutes between some of the station.

Train departs Leeds, make announcement and commence full check if you've taken over service, 7 minutes to Cross Gates, You'll probably get half done

Cross Gates to Garforth 5 minutes tops, probably get initial full check done and have to sell tickets from Cross Gates due to part time booking office

Garforth - East Garforth about 90 seconds, maybe squeeze in 1 ticket

East Garforth to Micklefield 3 minutes, usually someone has sat right at the very front so you have to wal length of the train to find out they had a pass in the first place, Metro Boundary so majority of passengers get off here

South Milford and Selby are pretty straight forward

I'd like to be able to say that I regularly see ticket checks underway by the time we get to Garforth but the reality is ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was a time when no passenger stock had PA and the railway and the people who used it survived for almost a hundred and fifty years somehow. Do people really need to be nannied to this extent?

Trains working east from Leeds for example, are the people who travel daily to Cross Gates, Garforth and Micklefield incapable of knowing their stops without being told?

There are such things as tourists-and local people using the rail service for the first time, who would benefit from feeling they can relax and not worry about missing the stop, to say nothing of visually impaired passengers such as my wife who was left unsure whether or not the train had gone past Selby unannounced.

 

[tom1649]

There were never any announcements on the 101s, even at the end in 2003, as they had no PA equipment. If the guard needed to relay any information to the passengers he/she had to go down the train telling people.

 

[TUC]

On a Leeds to Selby you'd be lucky to have an announcement leaving Leeds, arriving South Milford and Selby (possibly Micklefield). There's less than 4 minutes between some of the station.

Train departs Leeds, make announcement and commence full check if you've taken over service, 7 minutes to Cross Gates, You'll probably get half done

Cross Gates to Garforth 5 minutes tops, probably get initial full check done and have to sell tickets from Cross Gates due to part time booking office

Garforth - East Garforth about 90 seconds, maybe squeeze in 1 ticket

East Garforth to Micklefield 3 minutes, usually someone has sat right at the very front so you have to wal length of the train to find out they had a pass in the first place, Metro Boundary so majority of passengers get off here

South Milford and Selby are pretty straight forward

I'd have to say as well that there are plenty of stations in the south east that are only a few minutes apart, but most stations get announced.

 

[al78]

I'd like to be able to say that I regularly see ticket checks underway by the time we get to Garforth but the reality is ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There are such things as tourists-and local people using the rail service for the first time, who would benefit from feeling they can relax and not worry about missing the stop, to say nothing of visually impaired passengers such as my wife who was left unsure whether or not the train had gone past Selby unannounced.

True, although when using local bus services the stops are not announced and thus you are expected to know when you have reached your required stop. This does kind of put me off using local buses in unfamiliar cities, if you don't know the place it is not always easy to know when you have reached a particular area.

 

[Parallel]

True, although when using local bus services the stops are not announced and thus you are expected to know when you have reached your required stop. This does kind of put me off using local buses in unfamiliar cities, if you don't know the place it is not always easy to know when you have reached a particular area.

I've had this in Bristol after going to a party, the following morning I was on a local bus but I had no idea whereabouts the Lawrence Hill station stop was, turns out I missed but I got off at the next one and walked back.

But I agree, it can be very difficult when travelling to a new area in the dark with no announcements (or muffled announcements from the tannoy) - but there again, it could get VERY annoying if local services used the autoannouncement system South West Trains uses... Imagine this on the Cambrian coast. "This is Harlech. This train is for Pwllheli. The next station is Tygwyn" *1 minute later* "This is Tygwyn..."

 

[Starmill]

I've had this in Bristol after going to a party, the following morning I was on a local bus but I had no idea whereabouts the Lawrence Hill station stop was, turns out I missed but I got off at the next one and walked back.

But I agree, it can be very difficult when travelling to a new area in the dark with no announcements (or muffled announcements from the tannoy) - but there again, it could get VERY annoying if local services used the autoannouncement system South West Trains uses... Imagine this on the Cambrian coast. "This is Harlech. This train is for Pwllheli. The next station is Tygwyn" *1 minute later* "This is Tygwyn..."

"This is Ty Glas. This train is for Coryton. The next stop will be Birchgrove. This is Birchgrove. This train is for Coryton. The next stop will be Rhiwbina."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Considering we do Revenue etc etc as well as announcements sometimes we just don't get to the pa in time alse depends on the area. This side for instance TfGM like announcements where Merseyrail prefer Revenue. I do my best to announce the majority of stations but that isn't always possible. Especially on a 323.

Very annoying I should imagine. Though at least a 323 has a door panel and a PA in the same place in one location: unlike a pacer or sprinter (one in the cab, one by the door, no cab door).

The PA system on a 333 looks a little... odd. Do the ones outside the cabs actually work?

 

[Welshman]

True, although when using local bus services the stops are not announced and thus you are expected to know when you have reached your required stop. This does kind of put me off using local buses in unfamiliar cities, if you don't know the place it is not always easy to know when you have reached a particular area.

True - but you can always ask the driver to tip you the wink when you've arrived at your stop!

I've done this several times in areas with which I was unfamiliar, and then been very careful to sit as near to the driver as possible, or at least in a position where the driver could easily see me in the saloon-facing mirror and I could see her/him. A quick nod of the head is then all that is necessary, and nearly all drivers have been pleased to oblige.

But you can't do that on a train!

 

[A-driver]

When it comes to DOO trains without PIDS built in or working then there will often be a lack of announcements simply due to practicality. At FCC there are constant complaints from passengers on twitter about a lack of announcements on the 313s, especially at night when it's hard to see the station signs. Whilst I sympathise I will say that it isn't possible to expect the driver to be announcing every single station whilst concentrating on stopping the train in the platform and dispatching it again. And then add in that it's common for a 313 drivers diagram to contain over 90 stops in a day. I'm sorry but you can't expect a driver to make 90 station announcements in a day at the same time as controlling the trains approach to a platform. Infact many managers and industry inspectors from various bodies do raise concerns with drivers making any announcements whatsoever on approach to red signals or station platforms and when on the inner London metro work you are pretty much always approaching a station! Take power, shut off, brake in pretty much straight away type stuff. I would imagine that trying to fit station announcments in would start to raise incidents of missing braking points, stop shorts, overshoots etc.

I personally will announce interchange stations like Stevenage, hitchin, Finsbury park etc and make announcements on semi fast services as to where the train is actually stopping but really they need to install a PID system onto 313s. Driver announcements have been discussed with passenger groups and thankfully management do see sense on this one and fully understand that the driver can't announce every station but I can also see it from the passenger side that when trains are crowded or it's dark outside it can be difficult to know where you are if not a regular commuter.

 

[jon0844]

In the winter, when it's dark in the evening peak, it can be really hard on a busy 313 to see where you are - especially if you're under the pantograph and don't even have a window.

Clearly the solution is to ask where you are, and someone will tell you. So it usually isn't a major problem, although it's far from ideal.

I understand how a driver might find it hard, although I'd perhaps consider it fine to just say the station name without any of the 'now approaching/next station' stuff. Just the name, perhaps when the train is at the station and the doors are unlocked.

In the past, the old system FCC used on platforms would announce the station name on the platform CIS. But the Atos system doesn't do that, which is a shame.

Also, I think that announcements - certainly for the benefit of the visually impaired - should be as important as other accessibility issues. Thus, the ROSCO should have been forced to install a working system to auto announce stations many years ago. Ditto with the 319s and any other rolling stock still to get it.

FCC could also have invested in more visible signs earlier on. Many have been changed now, which with better lighting, are perhaps a bit more visible - but some are still positioned in bad places and not easily seen from the train.

All of these problems are not really down to the driver or guard, as there's technology to do this work automatically. And you have LED illuminated signs that take sod all power (no doubt they could be solar powered and light up sufficiently at some stations until after the last train has departed) that could make it easier when looking out of a window.

Even the most regular commuter can sometimes get confused, if not paying full attention (like getting sidetracked by a book/paper/smartphone game) and even regular passengers will sometimes venture outside of their regular route.

 

[shedman]

You people do get eaten up by the most peculiar things.

 

[jon0844]

You people do get eaten up by the most peculiar things.

I am sure people said the same about having ramps for buildings when 'most people' can use stairs. Or that there's no need to have information for the blind, because the majority of people are sick of being made to listen to announcements over and over.

However, it's a public transport system and anyone is entitled to use it. Therefore, what might be of no interest to some will be vital to other.

It's unfair to expect a driver to have to stand in for what technology can do perfectly well (the most they need to do is programme the systems that do exist to operate, which sadly some do not) and I don't see it as something that's trivial or not important.

Sure, most people can get by using steps, squeezing into a small toilet, changing a baby on the floor because there's no pull down table, or ask others where the hell they are at night - but shouldn't the industry be seeking to better itself with or without legislation forcing things through?

 

[A-driver]

It's unfair to expect a driver to have to stand in for what technology can do perfectly well (the most they need to do is programme the systems that do exist to operate, which sadly some do not) and I don't see it as something that's trivial or not important.

That is rather unfair to say that some drivers don't programme the PIDS on trains. I don't know any drivers who simply don't bother. There are numerous trains which have faulty PID systems which just won't work, others which drop out half way through the journey and especially in the rush hour with unusual stopping patterns there are no codes to programme in and therefore you can't switch the system on. Plus at weekends on 365s when there are engineering works and diversions round the Hertford you can't use them as the wheel rotations are greater which confuses the system and switches it off. The same can happen with the flyover at hitchin as there are more wheel rotations that way and so it causes the system to switch itself off around baldock.

To say some drivers don't actually programme it isn't true and is a rather accusational comment to make without knowing why many 365 and 317 trains actually don't have the PIDS functioning.

 

[Greenback]

There is a blance to be struck with on train announcements. Most of the announcements I hear regularly are far too verbose. Why say 'This train will shortly be arriving at xxxx, xxxx will be the next station stop in a few minutes time' when a simple 'Next stop xxxx' will tell passengers what they need to know?

Similarly, all the stuff about minding the gap between the train and the platform edge, reporting anything suspicious to the train crew or BTP can surely all be done in a much simpler way as well.

There doesn't seem to be quite as much delight in using 20 words when far less will do on the continent.

 

[Muzer]

Wheel rotations seems like a really bad way to do train positioning to me, and it's clear that it does indeed have issues. Is there any real reason why they couldn't have used GPS? GPS modules are cheap, accurate and robust to alternative, longer routes being taken, or wheel slip, or whatever.

 

[jon0844]

That is rather unfair to say that some drivers don't programme the PIDS on trains. I don't know any drivers who simply don't bother. There are numerous trains which have faulty PID systems which just won't work, others which drop out half way through the journey and especially in the rush hour with unusual stopping patterns there are no codes to programme in and therefore you can't switch the system on. Plus at weekends on 365s when there are engineering works and diversions round the Hertford you can't use them as the wheel rotations are greater which confuses the system and switches it off. The same can happen with the flyover at hitchin as there are more wheel rotations that way and so it causes the system to switch itself off around baldock.

To say some drivers don't actually programme it isn't true and is a rather accusational comment to make without knowing why many 365 and 317 trains actually don't have the PIDS functioning.

Okay, so if the system is broken then fair enough and I apologise (although I'm sure you don't know every driver and it has happened!) - but to the passenger, the reason doesn't matter. The reality is that there's a blank display and no audible announcements.

That just takes me back to my original point, that it should be treated as more important than it is.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say you take a train out of service because the PIS isn't working BUT I would say that it would be logged and have to be fixed within a certain timeframe, and perhaps if it isn't fixed then the TOC (or ROSCO, or whoever is responsible) is fined daily until it IS fixed. I bet minds would be more focussed if there was some sort of financial penalty.

Now I know that some companies have bought systems and then the company concerned has gone out of business or stopped supporting it - but that's a problem that isn't of any concern to you (the driver) or me (the passenger).

I am merely talking about a way to say the basics, like the next stop or where the train currently is. Even the safety announcements are rather silly and could possibly be done away with when they'll only be given at the start of the service, not along the way (I know some systems do this, but most don't and drivers certainly won't).

Given they're only provided in written form, I'd even go as far to say that it's less useful as those who aren't visually impaired could simply see better marked posters and signs (e.g. notes on seat backs or on the windows) and not need a spoken message.

Wheel rotations seems like a really bad way to do train positioning to me, and it's clear that it does indeed have issues. Is there any real reason why they couldn't have used GPS? GPS modules are cheap, accurate and robust to alternative, longer routes being taken, or wheel slip, or whatever.

I really hope the 365s will get a new system fitted that works properly in that regard, as well as being able to convey more useful information. I thought this was happening with the current refresh work, where CCTV is also added (another thing that's long overdue).

I mean, yes, there are lots of extra announcements that only a handful of drivers ever use (including one famous driver that seemed to use as many as possible - from keeping bags of seats to learning how to deal with the hustle alarm), but it must be too difficult to activate them. I'd say that 99% of my trips on a 365 don't have any extra announcements made, unless the driver says something him/herself.