TfGM to cut funding for buses

[radamfi]

Night buses cost £3 or less, which is less than the day fare on many routes.

 

[WatcherZero]

Subsidised ones are £2 flat, commercial ones are more expensive as they are only competing with taxi's which themselves have a surcharge for late night.


Yes they are there to encourage people to get the bus home rather than attempt to walk or drive home.

 

[Robertj21a]

Subsidised ones are £2 flat, commercial ones are more expensive as they are only competing with taxi's which themselves have a surcharge for late night.


Yes they are there to encourage people to get the bus home rather than attempt to walk or drive home.

So they use ratepayers money (presumably) to help drunks have a good night out on the cheap?

Robert

 

[tbtc]

So they use ratepayers money (presumably) to help drunks have a good night out on the cheap?

Robert

...or they spend money to encourage the night time economy/ give people a safe journey home (rather than risking it)/ discourage drink driving?

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed, encouraging people to get home safely at night, how is it different to subsidising services to the local shops or the bingo halls?

Community need.

 

[Robertj21a]

...or they spend money to encourage the night time economy/ give people a safe journey home (rather than risking it)/ discourage drink driving?

Yes, fully understand the points, and agree that it makes sense - but this sounds like it's out of their legal remit. Subsidising bus routes is supposed to meet a need that can't be met otherwise - this seems very marginal at best.

Robert

 

[northwichcat]

Night buses cost £3 or less, which is less than the day fare on many routes.

Stagecoach Manchester's single fares don't exceed £3 even for Bolton to Stockport: http://www.stagecoachbus.com/uploads/stagecoachmanchesterfaretables27october2013.pdf

Yes, fully understand the points, and agree that it makes sense - but this sounds like it's out of their legal remit. Subsidising bus routes is supposed to meet a need that can't be met otherwise - this seems very marginal at best.

Robert

Many routes have an evening service that is subsided, while the daytime route is commercial. Is providing one or two late buses which replicate a daytime route (bus, Metrolink or rail) really any different?

 

[radamfi]

Stagecoach Manchester's single fares don't exceed £3 even for Bolton to Stockport: http://www.stagecoachbus.com/uploads/stagecoachmanchesterfaretables27october2013.pdf

First typically charge £4 (FirstDay) for a longer distance single, such as Rochdale to Manchester (although that route currently has a £3 offer).

 

[northwichcat]

First typically charge £4 (FirstDay) for a longer distance single, such as Rochdale to Manchester (although that route currently has a £3 offer).

First Manchester say on their website their nightbus fares are 'from' £3, your earlier post suggested £3 is the maximum nightbus fare.

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/greater_manchester/journey_planning/night_services/

 

[gordonthemoron]

does manchester only have nightbuses on Friday & Saturday?

 

[northwichcat]

does manchester only have nightbuses on Friday & Saturday?

No but there's more on Friday and Saturday and I imagine the ones on other days are all commercial. I posted a link showing all the nightbus services in an earlier post. Stagecoach Manchester claimed a couple of years ago that all their nightbuses from Manchester are commercial so if that's the case then it must be some/all of the Firstbus ones which are contracted.

 

[Shrimper]

does manchester only have nightbuses on Friday & Saturday?

The 142, 143 and 43 all run at night (the 142/3 during university term time only) but are not considered nightbuses as such, though are included in any night bus advertising. All are run commercially.

 

[tbtc]

Yes, fully understand the points, and agree that it makes sense - but this sounds like it's out of their legal remit. Subsidising bus routes is supposed to meet a need that can't be met otherwise - this seems very marginal at best.

Robert

Funding a Night Bus sounds like subsidising a service that couldn't otherwise be run commercially.

As WatcherZero says, this is no different to TfGM paying for daytime services to get people to shops - from your previous post it sounded like you were branding "drunks" (your word) as somehow not being worthy of such subsidy?

 

[Robertj21a]

Funding a Night Bus sounds like subsidising a service that couldn't otherwise be run commercially.

As WatcherZero says, this is no different to TfGM paying for daytime services to get people to shops - from your previous post it sounded like you were branding "drunks" (your word) as somehow not being worthy of such subsidy?

Correct. My view is that subsidies should be used for essential services, not a cheap night on the town. I trust that this funding is not coming from the same pot that will now cut back those infrequent services used by less able/elderly people who have no alternative.

Robert

 

[northwichcat]

My view is that subsidies should be used for essential services, not a cheap night on the town.

The nightbus may be essential for getting the people who finish work after 23:00 (and can't make the last train/bus/tram) home. And that's not just the people who work in bars and clubs but people who work in theatres, on the radio, for the NHS etc.

 

[Deerfold]

The nightbus may be essential for getting the people who finish work after 23:00 (and can't make the last train/bus/tram) home. And that's not just the people who work in bars and clubs but people who work in theatres, on the radio, for the NHS etc.

Indeed. In London twice as many people use nightbuses to get to or from work (often to very poorly paying job) as use them to get home after a night out.

That's averaged over the week and won't be the case at 0300 Saturday or Sunday morning.

 

[tbtc]

Correct. My view is that subsidies should be used for essential services, not a cheap night on the town. I trust that this funding is not coming from the same pot that will now cut back those infrequent services used by less able/elderly people who have no alternative.

Robert

So Pensioners should get subsidised services to use their free passes on, leaving no nighttime services for younger people and the night time economy? Younger people should get taxis but pensioners shouldn't?

There's a need for late night buses in Greater Manchester - the Airport doesn't shut at 22:00, Hospitals don't, its not just "drunks" out after that time.

 

[Robertj21a]

So Pensioners should get subsidised services to use their free passes on, leaving no nighttime services for younger people and the night time economy? Younger people should get taxis but pensioners shouldn't?

There's a need for late night buses in Greater Manchester - the Airport doesn't shut at 22:00, Hospitals don't, its not just "drunks" out after that time.

I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a 'need' for late night/all night buses - my query was whether they should be funded by ratepayers. Young people 'going out' clearly already have enough money to go out - older people rarely have that luxury. I have no problem with ratepayers paying for these services just as long as the more vulnerable members of society don't lose out - is that true, or not ?

Rpbert

Robert

 

[transmanche]

I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a 'need' for late night/all night buses - my query was whether they should be funded by ratepayers. Young people 'going out' clearly already have enough money to go out - older people rarely have that luxury. I have no problem with ratepayers paying for these services just as long as the more vulnerable members of society don't lose out - is that true, or not ?

That assumes the services are solely being used by "young people 'going out'" - which has already been refuted upthread.

And 'ratepayers'? How 1980s!

 

[neilmc]

The airport does have an all-night bus service into Manchester, the 43. It runs past my house and is useful for late night arrivals. I doubt whether hospitals generate enough business for late-night buses, if you're visiting a hospital the wards have closed by then and if you're an emergency admission you certainly don't wait around for a bus! Hospital staff shift patterns don't involve shift changeovers in the middle of the night.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So Pensioners should get subsidised services to use their free passes on, leaving no nighttime services for younger people and the night time economy? Younger people should get taxis but pensioners shouldn't?

The ENCTS pass is not just something that is paid for solely out of local authority funding. Is there not a grant contribution from Central Government to local authorities ? There is a time limit upon which these passes are not valid upon near to the end of the day and most certainly not on all-night buses.

Night-time services and their funding is not a comparable matter, unless, of course, you feel that this too should be something that Central Government should make a contribution to.

Have I misunderstood the reasoning behind your posting ?

 

[transmanche]

The ENCTS pass is not just something that is paid for solely out of local authority funding. Is there not a grant contribution from Central Government to local authorities ? There is a time limit upon which these passes are not valid upon near to the end of the day and most certainly not on all-night buses.

Under the Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007, there is a financial contribution from central government. But then the majority of local authority funding is controlled by central government these days.

The law says that outside London concessionary travel is available from 09:30-23:00 Mon-Fri and anytime at weekends/bank holidays. (So concessionary passes should be valid at 00:01 on Saturdays.) In London, the law says that concessionary travel is available from 00:00-04:30 and 09:30-00:00 Mon-Fri and anytime at weekends/bank holidays.

Local authorities are free to offer extended concessions if they so wish - e.g. London boroughs offer free bus travel all-day every day, to all ENCTS pass holders.

 

[WatcherZero]

It was funded by central government until 2011 (~£260m annually) as a supplement to block transport grants (intitally responsibility of administration was upon lower tier authorities then from 2009 changed to higher tier authorites). However as part of the cuts in 2010 they axed the additional financial support to local authorities for it from 2011. Now its a statutory requirement and LA's have to finance it from their regular subsidised services grant (without any extra funding for the shifting of financial responsibility).

 

[34D]

The ENCTS pass is not just something that is paid for solely out of local authority funding. Is there not a grant contribution from Central Government to local authorities ? There is a time limit upon which these passes are not valid upon near to the end of the day and most certainly not on all-night buses.

Night-time services and their funding is not a comparable matter, unless, of course, you feel that this too should be something that Central Government should make a contribution to.

Have I misunderstood the reasoning behind your posting ?

To be fair, I would like to see Manchester's ENCTS proposition revert to bus only, 09:30 to 23:00, and not bus/train/tram including beyond 11pm

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To be fair, I would like to see Manchester's ENCTS proposition revert to bus only, 09:30 to 23:00, and not bus/train/tram including beyond 11pm

That is a matter for the relevant Greater Manchester authorities to decide. The matter of the additional matter of both train and tram provision will be one that will always enter into the equation at times of annual consideration by them.

 

[northwichcat]

Hospital staff shift patterns don't involve shift changeovers in the middle of the night.

In an emergency like an unusually high number of people being admitted hospital staff can be asked to come in at the last minute or be asked to stay on for a bit beyond their usual shift.

if you're an emergency admission you certainly don't wait around for a bus!

If you collapsed in the street at 10.30pm you could well be taken to a hospital but when they find you're just in need of rest and there's nothing else wrong with you then they're not going to keep you in overnight, they won't want you taking up a bed and someone with a broken leg not having a bed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Young people 'going out' clearly already have enough money to go out - older people rarely have that luxury.

By that argument would you think it's good idea to restrict over 60 passes being used for essential journeys only i.e. the local buses in your town to get to the shops or the doctors plus the bus to the nearest hospital?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair, I would like to see Manchester's ENCTS proposition revert to bus only, 09:30 to 23:00, and not bus/train/tram including beyond 11pm

Maybe the train/tram part should be a nationwide scheme but only be valid if you live in a village with no bus service and then only for a local journey rather than across the entire 'county.' So, for instance, pass holders in the village of Ashley just outside the GM boundary could use their passes on the train but not beyond either Altrincham or Knutsford.

 

[howittpie]

This is an interesting debate. With refference to the 43 the only journeys that recieve subsidy are departures from the Aiport Mondays-Saturdays between 5am and 6am which are not nightbuses so this doesn't really effect this service.

I believe that should still be some subsidy for noghtbuses as has already been mentioned the night time economy is a huge part of Manchester. I am sure that the majority of people that use the nightbuses that are subsidised are tax payers in Manchester but I have also noticed a good proportion of passengers being people who are on the way home from work. I think there should be an increase in provision of late night service in Manchester no a decrease for a city of the size the late night bus provision is poor.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And 'ratepayers'? How 1980s!

Where friends of my wife live in Heald Green, a part of Stockport, all three council seats are held by the Ratepayers, who have held these three council seats in local elections for an extremely long period of time.

I respectfully ask that you look up the dictionary definition of the word "ratepayers" to see how your family is affected by the meaning of that particular word. I assure you that the 1980's did not see the end of the use of that word.

Water rates are still based upon the rateable value of the property at this point in time.

 

[transmanche]

Water rates are still based upon the rateable value of the property at this point in time.

And what has that got to do with council tax and the funding of local authorities?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And what has that got to do with council tax and the funding of local authorities?

I was making reference in my posting to your earlier comment on the thread that said ..."and ratepayers. How 1980's"

I would suggest that you look at the whole posting that I made, rather than to abstract just a single part of it and then to proceed to use it totally out of the context in which it was made.