Grand Central Ticketing

[91101]

Just a few questions about Grand Central, and their ticketing, hopefully this can act as a sort of reference for everyone, as it seems to be getting quite a bit of discussion in the "Traction" forum.

1) It has been established that GCR will not accept railcard discounts against its own tickets. Are they accepting railcard discount where the pax has an interavailble ticket?
2) BR Safeguarded Boxes are NOT valid - is this true?
3) Are they allowing PRIV rate against their own fares?
4) Are their own staff being issued with TOCNE travel facilities?

 

[Gizmogle]

2) BR Safeguarded Boxes are NOT valid - is this true?
3) Are they allowing PRIV rate against their own fares?

Ah, thankyou for asking this, I've been wondering myself.
According to Tom Loader (class313) GC will not be accepting privs.

 

[yorkie]

1) It has been established that GCR will not accept railcard discounts against its own tickets. Are they accepting railcard discount where the pax has an interavailble ticket?

They have to accept them, the question is: will they issue them on the train? I think the answer is "Yes", as I asked one of their guards that question a few weeks ago.

3) Are they allowing PRIV rate against their own fares?

I doubt they are doing that, but the question is probably will they issue/accept PRIV rate against interavailable rate for travel on their trains?

 

[91101]

To be honest Yorkie, the question really is BOTH. Will they offer PRIV discount against the stated fair of £69 and also against the ANY PERMITTED fare of £224 for travel on their service.

Since this £69 fare seems to be a bit more complex than a Standard Open Return are they changing the name of the ticket type?

 

[yorkie]

To be honest Yorkie, the question really is BOTH. Will they offer PRIV discount against the stated fair of £69 and also against the ANY PERMITTED fare of £224 for travel on their service.

Yep, fair enough, but I'd be shocked if the answer to the first one is "Yes"!

Since this £69 fare seems to be a bit more complex than a Standard Open Return are they changing the name of the ticket type?

Good question, it appears it won't be valid on the 1650 peak departure out of King's Cross, but nothing has been mentioned about the 0822 from York (0646 ex-Sunderland). Both of these trains are valid on a Business Saver (from York: Adults £112.50, Y-P holders £74.25. From Sunderland: Adults £140.50, Railcard holders: £92.75), but not ordinary Savers.

If they charge a £15 supplement for the 0822, then railcard holders travelling at peak times are likely to go for the Any Permitted Business Saver (£92.75 from Sunderland) versus the GC fare plus 2 supplements (£69 + £30 = £99 from Sunderland). We've already established that off-peak railcard holders will go for the Any Permitted Saver anyway.

The other thing that isn't clear is whether the £15 supplement applies to GC tickets, or whether it applies to all tickets? ie, can I purchase an Any Permitted Saver and then pay a £15 supplement to travel at peak time? And if not, how would the excess be calculated?

We also don't know what all the fares are, the only one we've been quoted is £69 Sunderland-London. What about York-London? York-Sunderland?

If I were them, I'd consider introducing GC-only fares between York and Sunderland, bear in mind this only costs £13.70 for the full adult price by splitting at Hartlepool (£8.90 plus £4.70), a fare of around £12 would seem sensible. (That fare is off peak, available on all trains except the 0646 from Sunderland)

 

[91101]

I was talking to two of their conductors today, on the 09:30 from Sunderland, both really fantastic people, a pleasure to talk to, but, it would appear that certain elements of the ticketing structure are yet to be finalised.

I did have it confirmed that Railcards/Any Staff Travel facilities are NOT valid against thier own fares, but still not sure of their stance on interavailable tickets. It seems like it could be a good thing to keep things simple.

 

[Max]

The boycott of railcard dicounts is mad...families are going to be particularly turned off, as the difference in price between an any permitted SVR (33% off adults and 60% off for children) and the GC only ticket will be huge. Personally, I think that the omission of advance purchase is going to be a mistake. After all, there's a massive difference between a GNER advance 1 at £11.50 each way (therefore £23.00 return) and £69 return. The whole idea of flexibility is a bit short-sighted anyway, because GC aren't exactly going to be operating many trains, so there won't be much oppurtunity to be flexible!

 

[yorkie]

The boycott of railcard dicounts is mad...families are going to be particularly turned off, as the difference in price between an any permitted SVR (33% off adults and 60% off for children) and the GC only ticket will be huge.

I don't think it is going to turn people off, it's simply a case of GC missing out on the vast majority of revenue for railcard holders. Basically, anyone holding a railcard who purchases a ticket for the GC route will be handing most of their money to NatEx and GC will only get the ORCATS revenue. No-one's prices are rising, it's just that railcard holders have to continue with their current prices.

Personally, I think that the omission of advance purchase is going to be a mistake. After all, there's a massive difference between a GNER advance 1 at £11.50 each way (therefore £23.00 return) and £69 return. The whole idea of flexibility is a bit short-sighted anyway, because GC aren't exactly going to be operating many trains, so there won't be much oppurtunity to be flexible!

Well, clearly GC are not in the market for advance purchase (at this stage). It's not necessarily about providing flexibility in a "turn up and go" sense, but the GC-only tickets allow people to make a decision 'on the day' whether or not to make a trip, and to extend that trip without penalty.

I'm sure GC will be closely monitoring patronage to determine if there are many seats empty on certain trains and then looking at ways they can fill them.

 

[91101]

The problem as I see it is that Railcard holders will have no incentive to travel GCR as they do with Hull Trains who not only provide lower fares but very low when the railcard discount is factored in.

Yeowart, as a I understand it, wants to do things the old fashioned way, and keep fares as low as possible, while retaining flexibility, against the current trend of moving to an advance purchase, book ahead railway, its a laudable goal, but I do remember reading some statistics that 80% of Hull Trains business is book ahead advance purchase fares.]

As I see it the problem that GCR faces are two fold:

1) £69 return for the leisure market is quite pricey, when that can be slashed in half by advance purchase. For this weekend for example, I can get APEX GNER tickets from Sunderland for £59, at times which are more suitable and condusive to a day trip. If you also consider that National Express and MegaBus both operate extremely low fares on this market then again £70 is expensive.

2) The problem I see with the business market, particularly from Sunderland is that Sunderland station doesn't have car parking, but quite simply, Sunderland city centre and the immediate surrounding areas are a dump, Hendon, Pennywell, Southwick, Ford Estate, are all very unprosperous areas. There's only Barnes that would be considered the "Posh" end. The point I am trying to make, is that the sort of busy professional, who works in Sunderland, is very unlikely to live in the city centre, and much more likely to be living on the A690 corridor to Durham, and commutes in to Sunderland by car, so when they have their meeting in London, they're only a short hop from Durham station, with its half hourly service, and they dont really care what the fare is, as its being put on the expense account anyway.

As already mentioned, if a passenger is paying £69, plus two £15 supplements for the 0646 ex SUN and 1650 ex KGX, then surely, it would make more logical sense tow pay the extra £45 and get the Business Saver, allowing you a later departure from Durham, with a comparible arrival time in London, contrasted with departing any time you like for the return, so if your meeting finishes early, or late, you're not penalised to travel at a different time.

If GCR had a better spread of services, say a 1500, 1700 and a 1900 departure, then the logic in their concept becomes more apparent, but untill they get those extra paths, their services are always going to be more attractive to the leisure market.

 

[voyagerdude220]

but I do remember reading some statistics that 80% of Hull Trains business is book ahead advance purchase fares.

That sounds very plausable, especially after my excellent trip on HT on 23rd October, when I noticed that the majority of seats in FC, were reserved, with 99% being London-Hull. (with the odd one being Grantham-Hull)

 

[metrocammel]

Yeowart, as a I understand it, wants to do things the old fashioned way, and keep fares as low as possible, while retaining flexibility, against the current trend of moving to an advance purchase, book ahead railway, its a laudable goal, but I do remember reading some statistics that 80% of Hull Trains business is book ahead advance purchase fares.]

In that case, I absolutely agree with Yeowart. The old-style flexibility is much more desirable that the current "AP era", which although is very favourable if you can specify your date and exact time, however it is completely awful for anyone who is uncertain about when they wish to travel- and any of you cranks out there will realise the benefits of flexibility - especially if your a "number-crunching" type!
I really dislike APs, and nearly always opt for SVRs over them, OK you pay a little bit more, but I think that is worth it for the added flexibility. Dont get me wrong, they APs have a very good place in the ticketing market- I am using a very cheap (fSR 1/2 price!) Virgin Value to get to London in December- as I have to be on a particular train to make the Madness concert I'm watching, but for my normal travels, I will always pay the extra for the saver- so with GC, albeit a bit chingy, I think the "walk-up, flexible, yet not over the top" fare is excellent- much more passenger-friendly than the criminal prices most other IC TOCs charge for their on-train and walk-up fares!

 

[Max]

But many simply don't have that extra money! For example, if I was to choose between the £50 SVR fare and two advance singles at £20 return, its obvious what I'd go for. If you're going for a day out to London for example, why do you need the flexibility? All you need is good planning! I would have thought that most leisure passengers travel on cheap advance purchase tickets.

Here's an example, let me do the maths:

Sunderland-London for an average family of 4 (2 adults, 2 children), with a family railcard:-

GNER Advance 1 - £92
Std SVR - £162
Grand Central Return - £210

That makes the Grand Central fare over £100 more expensive than the cheapest GNER fare, and more importantly, nearly £50 more expensive than the normal saver fare! Clearly if they go to the station and ask for a return, they're not going to be sold the Grand Central fare because it will always work out more expensive!

 

[91101]

The problem, I suppose, metrocammel, is one of demand and capacity, if your walkup tickets are priced so that any one can afford to travel at any time, of day, then you end up with the busiest services even busiser, and the quieter ones quieter, so the concept of yeild management comes to the fore. Make it advantagous for people to utilise off-peak trains, and disadvantagous to utilise peak hour ones. Our railway, thankfully, is being managed for passenger growth, rather than decline as it was a few years back and with finite capacity, options must be explored to spread the load evenly.

Thankfully, for now, it appears that GCR are in the fortunate position to be able to challenge that concept, but five years down the line, if they have peak hour overcrowding on the 06:46, and only a smattering of passengers for the 12:30, then they too will need to manage their fares differently.

 

[voyagerdude220]

then they too will need to manage their fares differently.

IMO, I feel that TOCs should, where it's suitable, offer the most expensive AP singles at peak times, e.g. Virgin Value A/Advance Standard/First to & from London, which should off course be priced at a premium for peak time travel, but more importantly set at a price which also attracts peak time travellers to book a specific train, at a far lower price than a fully flexible ticket.

This way, they have the choice of paying a premium for peak time travel, but it could be reduced enough to encourage them to book a specific train. (And also give all the revenue to the specific TOC/s)

But also, the fully flexible one wouldn't be too expensive to give any bussiness person who's economical on money, and also time to buy an open single, which is not priced at such a high price compared to the AP single.

I feel that FGW and GNER are great examples of this system, although VWC uses it to/from Euston, XC only currently offers Advance bussiness standard singles, which all too often appear to save literally a few pounds compared to the relevent SOS.