Having travelled on the 22000s, I can say they are in the same comfort class as the 170s - directly comparable in fact.
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'Intercity' trains - New Scotrail Franchise
- Thread starter Surreyman
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Having travelled on the 22000s, I can say they are in the same comfort class as the 170s - directly comparable in fact.
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R
RailUK Forums
They want to announce a new/improved train as part of the franchise. The fact that the current trains are imperfect but adequate (needs 6 car at busier times) doesn't make such a good press release.
In reality, EGIP+Stirling with 380s, use the released diesel units to strengthen elsewhere with a plan to gradually wire Fife/Borders before 156s & 158s are retired, then to Aberdeen before 170s are retired.
They could be hoping for something like the 444''s where they are feel like IC trains and can have the sort of facilities passengers would expect, but with the advantage that they work work well for commuters.
Photohunter71
Member
Bring back the 47/7's!!
Indeed I think that's the most likely result.
Certainly given the short run between Edinburgh and Glasgow a 380 or equiv seems most suitable for the job and given they already have a fleet of 380's
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Bombardier Aventa (mark 2) apparently has EMU / DMU / bimode and battery options.
see some recent discussion:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93221
edwin_m
Veteran Member
New units will be needed somewhere because of the greater electrified mileage, but are unlikely to be 380s because Siemens would offer Desiro City instead. It is possible that they could do something like running new units on Edinburgh-Glasgow and Glasgow-Ayr and cascade 380s from the Ayr route to the shorter Stirling/Alloa workings.
joeykins82
Member
Oh I don't know, the new TSGN franchise could order a few bi-mode Aventras for Brighton-Ashford and London Bridge-Uckfield, maybe in conjunction with SWT ordering some for Salisbury/Exeter/Bristol. There'll be quite a few part electrified routes that class 800 wouldn't be suitable for, and given the shortage of newer DMUs it could make sense to cascade 170s and 158/159s out to completely non-electrified routes. As discussed previously, getting ROSCOs or the DfT to sanction a DMU order while there's a rolling electrification programme underway is unlikely, but that's neatly sidestepped with bi-modes that could be converted to straight EMUs once the routes that they operate are fully wired.
Oh yes those MK4 sets are going to be all over the place, (Scotrail, Chlitern, MML, GE, Transpennine, West of England) and get the 47/7's in full scotrail livery out
Oh yes and lets get rid of the existing units for trains that are at least 10 years older!
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gordonthemoron
Established Member
can't the Mk4s go to Romania or Bulgaria?
YorkshireRider
Member
If this were to happen its time to think of terminating all EC trains at Edinburgh and letting the Scotrail franchise take on a few extra Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness services using the IEP trains. This would reduce costs on the EC franchise and still provide trains with capacity and comfort for passengers on these lines and probably increase revenue for Scotrail too.
Nym
Established Member
How mechanically similar to 380s are the Desiro City Units, or how likely are Siemens to do a production run of 30-40 units. Presumably Scotrail would prefer 380s for maintenance purposes. Or would Desiro City be significantly cheaper to buy (for the ROSCO)?
Nym
Established Member
Cheaper to buy and maintain, and they're years ahead in terms of development...
NotATrainspott
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IIRC the 380s are an intermediate design between the Desiro and the Desiro City - same bodyshell design as the City but the older traction package. The new EMUs have to have 23m long carriages (because so much will be spent on allowing 8x23 car workings) so an 8 car Thameslink class 700 wouldn't work on the route, so they would be some kind of non-preexisting design. As a result the Siemens order would visually look not dissimilar to the 380s but there are no other 23m carriage EMUs with the 1/3rd, 2/3rd door arrangement in construction at the moment.
If you want them being used by Romanians or Bulgarians, you'd clearly need to keep them here.
HSTEd
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Instead of worrying about 8-car 23m units, perhaps they should just bite the bullet and buy 9 car Desiro Cities.
It might be cheaper than trying to retool production lines and it would give a nice level of standardisation.
It might be cheaper than trying to retool production lines and it would give a nice level of standardisation.
Martin222002
Member
You have to remember that Siemens is currently offering the 115mph Desiro 'Express' as well as the Desiro City, which is basically a class 380 body with all the tech and electrics from the Desiro City.
Photohunter71
Member
When will they make the announcement on what is to run on what lines etc? I have to admit that when I went to North Berwick on the 380,it's a pretty smooth journey and gets off to a quick start. They are ideal for wee routes like that.
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joeykins82
Member
Well, given that the specification is for the next ScotRail franchise the full rolling stock plan will be released at some point after the franchise is awarded. No doubt there'll be rumours about what each bidder is offering as a franchise commitment, but they'll be just rumours until after the franchise is confirmed.
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
Just to add, the franchise will be awarded in October 2014, to commence in late March 2015.
Presumably, we will find out what option the winning bidder has chosen for the "inter-city initiative" quite soon after the franchise has been awarded, as far as whether they will be using existing or new-build rolling stock is concerned, and perhaps the form the stock will take if the franchisee proposes using existing stock. As well as the "easy option" of refurbishing the existing 170s, there will be plenty of high-powered regional/long distance diesel rolling stock becoming available towards the close of the decade in suitable numbers to cover Scotrail's long distance diagrams, in the form of the 185s from Transpennine and the Meridians from the MML.
The announcement of the chosen form of the EGIP rolling stock will presumably take longer to become clear if a tender for it's construction and maintenance has to be issued first, but you would hope that the process will then move forward at a fair pace as the first of the new trains (sufficient to operate a peak time 7-car diagram) have to be in service on EGIP from December 2016, with full fleet deployment a year later.
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As has already been said, Desiro City isn't an option as the ITT stipulates 7, and later 8, carriage formations of 23 metre carriages.
Perhaps I'll be proved wrong, but I can't see fixed formation 7 car trains (initially), later extended to 8 by inserting an additional carriage, being probable either. While it is not specifically stated in the Invitation to Tender, Transport Scotland are possibly envisaging a mix of 3 and 4-car units being utilised to form 7 and 8-car trains when they talk about the limitations of the stabling facilities at Eastfield, where the headshunt is stated to be able to accomodate 3 x 23 metre carriages but not 4 (rather than being worded as "more than 3" to cover longer fixed formations). This seems most likely.
While it is all pie-in-the-sky thinking on my part, and slightly off-topic as the rolling stock for EGIP is a separate initiative under plan 6, surely it would be logical for an initial batch of 3-car units to be built for EGIP, followed (though starting almost simultaneously) by a rolling programme of 4-car units, first to work alongside the 3-car units forming 7-car trains from December 2016 onwards, and then to oust the 3-car units altogether from EGIP from December 2018 (when 8-car working is scheduled to start) and initiate a mini-cascade to put the 3-car units on the HLOS Dunblane/Alloa/Stirling electrified serviceS, which are also due to start in December 2018.
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tbtc
Veteran Member
I agree with that.
Also worth pointing out that ScotRail is going to need a number of extra EMUs for "Southside" electrification (i.e. routes from Glasgow Central) - its not just about the headline grabbing EGIP stuff.
Hopefully the franchise time will be when the commitment of electrification to Fife will be confirmed - there's a lot of DMUs taken up with the Fife Circle - hopefully an EMU could speed that journey up (given the relatively frequent stopping pattern).
The word on the shop floor is that more 380's (or 380 compatible stock) will be built for 2016's E&G electrification. These will work the route until 2018 when new build dedicated 4/8 car 23m stock will come on stream.
the 380's (or equivalent) will then be displaced to newly electrified and existing routes out of Glasgow Central and possibly also onto Argyle line services (New build 20 meter stock has also been suggested here). Class 314 will go off lease and class 318/320 will migrate to North Clyde/Cumbernauld/Falkirk Grahamston and Glasgow/Edinburgh - Dunblane/Alloa routes (possibly combining with class 334 and including North Clyde - Edinburgh in a common pool).
As for longer distance routes, I'm afraid 170's and 158's are here until at least the end of the next franchise and are unlikely to be replaced with anything other than full electrification. The entire class 156 fleet is scheduled to go off lease in phases by 2020.
the 380's (or equivalent) will then be displaced to newly electrified and existing routes out of Glasgow Central and possibly also onto Argyle line services (New build 20 meter stock has also been suggested here). Class 314 will go off lease and class 318/320 will migrate to North Clyde/Cumbernauld/Falkirk Grahamston and Glasgow/Edinburgh - Dunblane/Alloa routes (possibly combining with class 334 and including North Clyde - Edinburgh in a common pool).
As for longer distance routes, I'm afraid 170's and 158's are here until at least the end of the next franchise and are unlikely to be replaced with anything other than full electrification. The entire class 156 fleet is scheduled to go off lease in phases by 2020.
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