Where are all the DMUs going?

[Muzer]

So, with electrification of many routes coming in the near future, I was wondering how many DMUs we have a good idea of the cascade plan for.

Ones that come to mind:

Thames Turbos (165s/166s) from Great Western electrification - probably to be cascaded to the branch lines in Devon/Cornwall, maybe some longer-distance 'regional express' type services too.

172s from GOBLIN - ?

185s from TransPennine electrification - ?

Various Sprinters from North West electrification - ?

(Obviously a whole load of HSTs if you still want to class them as units)

Any more that I've missed?

 

[Manchester77]

The sprinters on northern are staying on Northern to strengthen services and most likely replace 142s

172s will probably end up on Chiltern (they've expressed they would like some extra units)

The 185s, who knows, personally I'd like to see them stay in the Manchester area (for them to still use the Ardwick depot) for use on Buxton services.

 

[43074]

You can get a pretty good idea of what's going to be displaced here, but nobody knows what will go where yet.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would suggest looking through the thread linked above it is very extensive with knowledge and discussion.

 

[47802]

what's the point of this we are essentially 3 years away from any significant cascade of rolling stock other than a few for northern following Manchester Liverpool in December which will most likely be used for the Todmorden curve, and 5 years away from TPX Electrification

 

[edwin_m]

what's the point of this we are essentially 3 years away from any significant cascade of rolling stock other than a few for northern following Manchester Liverpool in December which will most likely be used for the Todmorden curve, and 5 years away from TPX Electrification

Any new rolling stock needed in three years time would need to start the procurement process pretty soon, so the uncertainty about where the existing units are going and whether there are enough about them is something of a worry.

 

[transmanche]

Any new rolling stock needed in three years time would need to start the procurement process pretty soon, so the uncertainty about where the existing units are going and whether there are enough about them is something of a worry.

Especially as some of those existing units will also need to be refurbished before being cascaded to new routes - even if only to meet the accessibility regulations.

 

[tbtc]

what's the point of this we are essentially 3 years away from any significant cascade of rolling stock other than a few for northern following Manchester Liverpool in December which will most likely be used for the Todmorden curve, and 5 years away from TPX Electrification

Also, we don't yet know what the electrification map will look like on 1 January 2020 (the date when accessibility requirements will restrict a number of current DMUs/ require significant upgrades), so we can't be sure how many DMUs are going to be spare at any stage (e.g. if current TPE electrification commitments carry on to reach Hull/ Middlesbrough then that frees up a number of extra DMUs above the numbers currently known about).

Basically, we'll see around a hundred DMUs freed up in CP5, but in dribs and drabs, and some of them will go straight onto other busy lines (like the "ten" 185s from Scottish services going to increase the number of TPE seats from Liverpool to York - which will get freed up a second time when those lines are electrified).

 

[47802]

Any new rolling stock needed in three years time would need to start the procurement process pretty soon, so the uncertainty about where the existing units are going and whether there are enough about them is something of a worry.

Why is it a worry I'm sure the DFT have a plan for it, and it would seem to me that electrification up 2016 at least is likely to be covered by cascaded 319, 387 and the introduction of IEP.

 

[edwin_m]

I doubt we'll see much more electrification in 2020 than what has already been announced. The lead time for these schemes is getting on for five years and there is also the question of how rapidly the industry could ramp up to delivering even more.

I agree the cascaded and committed EMUs will cover until 2016 but the OP seems to be more about what happens to the diesels. transmanche makes a good point about refurbishment timescales, which can be quite long if the fleet in question is still in service so only a few can be in the works at any time. That's probably more relevant t o this topic than my previous suggestion about new procurement, since it's pretty clear there won't be any new DMUs in the next several years (apart from the bi-mode IEPs).

 

[47802]

I doubt we'll see much more electrification in 2020 than what has already been announced. The lead time for these schemes is getting on for five years and there is also the question of how rapidly the industry could ramp up to delivering even more.

I agree the cascaded and committed EMUs will cover until 2016 but the OP seems to be more about what happens to the diesels. transmanche makes a good point about refurbishment timescales, which can be quite long if the fleet in question is still in service so only a few can be in the works at any time. That's probably more relevant t o this topic than my previous suggestion about new procurement, since it's pretty clear there won't be any new DMUs in the next several years (apart from the bi-mode IEPs).

Well in terms of where the units are going beyond 2016 I don't think its worth speculating at this stage, the obvious expectation that released turbo units will go to Bristol and the Southwest, Units released by the Liverpool Manchester electrification are likely to be used for the Todmorden curve and relieve capacity. In terms of the Blackpool electrification then any 185's released will probably used to increase capacity on other TPX routes in the short term until electrification, and the northern units released well I guess it could be the start of bin a railbus time or possibly also retained for increase in capacity short term pending further electrification, and maybe in all this EMT, Arriva Wales and Anglia might be able to scrounge a few units.

 

[northwichcat]

The 185s, who knows, personally I'd like to see them stay in the Manchester area (for them to still use the Ardwick depot) for use on Buxton services.

I don't think it's that likely at present. Network Rail's platform lengthening program for CP5 includes making all platforms on the Buxton line long enough to take a 92m train (e.g. a pair of 156s) not long enough for a pair of 185s - a single 185 won't provide sufficient capacity at peak times.

Some of the main stations on the CLC Liverpool-Manchester route are set to get platforms lengthened to accommodate a pair of 185s so 6 car 185s on Liverpool-Sheffield and beyond services seems probable. Newton-le-Willows is also set to get it's platforms lengthened to the same length but that could be to accommodate 6 car 175s rather than 6 car 185s.

 

[edwin_m]

Where will the 185s go? These have higher leasing and operating costs than other units so need to find somewhere that their higher quality wins out over a 170, hopefully their 100mph capability is used and they are not hobbled by differential speed restrictions or lack of end gangways. Off the top of my head that's only Chiltern and XC Nottingham-Cardiff (but not Birmingham-Stansted). Or just possibly cascading some 158 from FGW or 159s from SWT.

 

[Philip]

I don't think it's that likely at present. Network Rail's platform lengthening program for CP5 includes making all platforms on the Buxton line long enough to take a 92m train (e.g. a pair of 156s) not long enough for a pair of 185s - a single 185 won't provide sufficient capacity at peak times.

Some of the main stations on the CLC Liverpool-Manchester route are set to get platforms lengthened to accommodate a pair of 185s so 6 car 185s on Liverpool-Sheffield and beyond services seems probable. Newton-le-Willows is also set to get it's platforms lengthened to the same length but that could be to accommodate 6 car 175s rather than 6 car 185s.

Doubt it's to accommodate extra 175s as the fleet is already fairly stretched between North Wales Inter Urban and Marches duties.

 

[northwichcat]

and they are not hobbled by differential speed restrictions or lack of end gangways.... Or just possibly cascading some 158 from FGW or 159s from SWT.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there given SWT have long 158/159 formations.

I seem to recall the SWT 444s originally had the same issues as the TPE 185s do in certain places and EMUs are much lighter than DMUs.
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Doubt it's to accommodate extra 175s as the fleet is already fairly stretched between North Wales Inter Urban and Marches duties.

Yeah I think it'll be double 185s from Chester to Yorkshire but wasn't dismissing the 175s being used in double given Network Rail only say the length of trains platforms need to accommodate and not the type of trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Because a lot of the electrification after Thameslink and Crossrail is longer distance so intercity I fear that there will be a lot of the wrong kind of DMUs freed up ?. Especially as the right kind of DMUs are older.

I am thinking of the 180s after the Great Western is electrified and Meridians (222s) after the Midland main line is electrified. As for HSTs I dare to suggest some usable HSTs will be around but they wont be worth making DDA compliant as there will also be 180s and 222s to find homes for :cry: - thats despite the HSTs lack of underfloor engines.

I wonder if there are enough long distance routes currently using 150s & 170s that could usefully use 180s and 222s ?. I mention 150s and 170s as these have a useful door size/spacing for suburban routes. More likely the 222s will replace 156s & 158s (but where ?) then those 156s and 158s can free up 150s and 170s (but where ?). What we are at risk of is NOT getting enough DMUs for suburban work. That makes the pacers (142s, 143s and 144s) hard to replace ?.

Not sure on the detail of the above but it does suggest to me that any suburban style DMUs are very likely to be made DDA complient. The spanner in the works will be the age/condition of some of those units as 180s and 222s are newer than pacers and 150s.

 

[edwin_m]

You seem to be contradicting yourself there given SWT have long 158/159 formations.

I seem to recall the SWT 444s originally had the same issues as the TPE 185s do in certain places and EMUs are much lighter than DMUs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yeah I think it'll be double 185s from Chester to Yorkshire but wasn't dismissing the 175s being used in double given Network Rail only say the length of trains platforms need to accommodate and not the type of trains.

Yes the lack of gangways might be an issue for SWT. As is might also be between Chester and Yorkshire, though existing TPE routes get by without through gangways.

What "issues" are you referring to with the 444?

 

[northwichcat]

What "issues" are you referring to with the 444?

I understand when the Electrostars and Desiros first replaced the slam door stock Network Rail found they caused a lot more wear on the track compared to the old stock and it needed temporary speed limits ahead of track work being done.

 

[swt_passenger]

The speed restrictions were more to do with power supply limitations while the DC network was upgraded - to the current 'improved' state where there are still power restrictions everywhere.

I don't recall track wear ever being given as a reason for significant speed restrictions over wide areas, even though the SWT Desiros (at least) have all had bogie mods since new.

 

[Philip]

How about splitting the Manchester to Carmarthen services at Cardiff and have 158s refurbished in ATW style running in 4-coach formation on the Marches bit from Manchester, with perhaps the front portion then forming a separate service from Cardiff onwards to Swansea and Carmarthen etc? It'd give good connections from Manchester and the North West to West Wales without the need for a 6-hour direct train. It'd also increase capacity on Manchester to Cardiff. Arriva seem quite committed towards the 158s running long distance services on the Cambrian and North Wales Coast, the refurbished interiors are excellent - might be an idea to make a uniform express fleet for all their long distance routes?

Just to give a bit more weight to the idea the future of the 175s on North Wales Inter Urban services is a bit uncertain because of the potential for Warrington to Chester electrification and the subsequent splitting of Llandudno - Manchester services at Chester.

Here's my thinking for post 2018 (all pie in the sky mind!): New EMUs for TPE North/North West, 185s to present Northern franchise routes (like Blackpool-York, Man Vic-Leeds, Leeds-Notts) releasing 158s for use elsewhere ie. Marches, South TPE. Class 175s then displaced to any number of routes such as Scotrail, Chiltern, Cardiff to Portsmouth, Cardiff to Nottingham, maybe even Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich..

 

[freetoview33]

I'm sure Northern could use up many DMU's replacing pacers and such like even with electrification. I can still see there being a shortage of DMU's in the not too distant future.

 

[northwichcat]

How about splitting the Manchester to Carmarthen services at Cardiff and have 158s refurbished in ATW style running in 4-coach formation on the Marches bit from Manchester, with perhaps the front portion then forming a separate service from Cardiff onwards to Swansea and Carmarthen etc? It'd give good connections from Manchester and the North West to West Wales without the need for a 6-hour direct train. It'd also increase capacity on Manchester to Cardiff. Arriva seem quite committed towards the 158s running long distance services on the Cambrian and North Wales Coast, the refurbished interiors are excellent - might be an idea to make a uniform express fleet for all their long distance routes?

Just to give a bit more weight to the idea the future of the 175s on North Wales Inter Urban services is a bit uncertain because of the potential for Warrington to Chester electrification and the subsequent splitting of Llandudno - Manchester services at Chester.

Here's my thinking for post 2018 (all pie in the sky mind!): New EMUs for TPE North/North West, 185s to present Northern franchise routes (like Blackpool-York, Man Vic-Leeds, Leeds-Notts) releasing 158s for use elsewhere ie. Marches, South TPE. Class 175s then displaced to any number of routes such as Scotrail, Chiltern, Cardiff to Portsmouth, Cardiff to Nottingham, maybe even Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich..

I suggested before that the ATW 175s could be replaced by a larger number of refurbished 158s, which would be better for using in multiple. However, there was a lot of "You're not taking away our 175s" type comments in response to that.

 

[tbtc]

I suggested before that the ATW 175s could be replaced by a larger number of refurbished 158s, which would be better for using in multiple. However, there was a lot of "You're not taking away our 175s" type comments in response to that.

It would make things easier for ATW to run one fleet of 90/100 mph DMUs for longer distance services, given the efficiency gains of one fleet type for such services.

The problem is, where do you send the 175s (to avoid duplicating 158s/ 170s etc)? The only place I could get the maths to work (ignoring the 25x158s at EMT, which do a lot of working in multiple) would have been GA:

• 5x single coach 153
• 9x two coach 156
• 4x two coach 170
• 8x three coach 170

(= 26 units with 55 coaches)

...replaced by

• 11x two coach 175
• 16x three coach 175

(= 27 units with 70 coaches)

...that then has the problem that some branch lines are much more suited to a 153 than a 175! So maybe GA would keep the 153s (but at least it would circulate some "standard" 156s and 170s elsewhere in the UK)

 

[anthony263]

Shame Alstom couldnt come up with a replacement cab design for the class 175's which has a gangway like they have done with the class 460's.

That said I am sure Alstom would have to go througha lot of red tape for the new design and sadly I am not sure if a gangway on the front would look suitable on the class 175's.

Ideally if as I hope the Manchester - Milford Haven services are retained post electrification I think 4 car trains would be justified as least as far as Swansea with a single unit continuing to Carmarthen & Milford Haven.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem is, where do you send the 175s (to avoid duplicating 158s/ 170s etc)?

It partly depends what lines will see 185s when some TPE services go over to electric.

I think if the 175s need to be used in multiple they are best suited to longer services which have a number of stops that don't have catering. That way you've not got a catering trolley having to switch between units and if you've got a 4/5 car service which have a number of stops then ideally you should have 2 people on board able to do ticket checking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ideally if as I hope the Manchester - Milford Haven services are retained post electrification I think 4 car trains would be justified as least as far as Swansea with a single unit continuing to Carmarthen & Milford Haven.

The problem with doing that is you need the catering trolley to constantly transfer between units at stations and also if a Milford Haven passenger boards the wrong portion then they can't move between portions while the train is in motion. That's one of the advantages of EMT using 158s on Liverpool-Norwich when they have a trolley service and split at Nottingham.

 

[PHILIPE]

How about splitting the Manchester to Carmarthen services at Cardiff and have 158s refurbished in ATW style running in 4-coach formation on the Marches bit from Manchester, with perhaps the front portion then forming a separate service from Cardiff onwards to Swansea and Carmarthen etc? It'd give good connections from Manchester and the North West to West Wales without the need for a 6-hour direct train. It'd also increase capacity on Manchester to Cardiff. Arriva seem quite committed towards the 158s running long distance services on the Cambrian and North Wales Coast, the refurbished interiors are excellent - might be an idea to make a uniform express fleet for all their long distance routes?

Just to give a bit more weight to the idea the future of the 175s on North Wales Inter Urban services is a bit uncertain because of the potential for Warrington to Chester electrification and the subsequent splitting of Llandudno - Manchester services at Chester.

Here's my thinking for post 2018 (all pie in the sky mind!): New EMUs for TPE North/North West, 185s to present Northern franchise routes (like Blackpool-York, Man Vic-Leeds, Leeds-Notts) releasing 158s for use elsewhere ie. Marches, South TPE. Class 175s then displaced to any number of routes such as Scotrail, Chiltern, Cardiff to Portsmouth, Cardiff to Nottingham, maybe even Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich..

Splitting Manchester to West Wales services at Cardiff would be a backward step. They used to be split but through services were created to avoid Unit Shunt moves around Cardiff where pathing is critical and to eliminate unit down time waiting for their next job instead of being gainfully employed working.

 

[edwin_m]

Splitting Manchester to West Wales services at Cardiff would be a backward step. They used to be split but through services were created to avoid Unit Shunt moves around Cardiff where pathing is critical and to eliminate unit down time waiting for their next job instead of being gainfully employed working.

The Cardiff re-signalling removes this problem as trains will be able to arrive and depart on both sides of the station instead of shunting out to Canton and back.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Cardiff re-signalling removes this problem as trains will be able to arrive and depart on both sides of the station instead of shunting out to Canton and back.

They would still be "hanging about" waiting departure time to go back and blocking a platform.

 

[Philip]

I suggested before that the ATW 175s could be replaced by a larger number of refurbished 158s, which would be better for using in multiple. However, there was a lot of "You're not taking away our 175s" type comments in response to that.

You could argue the 175s were taken away from the TPE North West routes by South Wales. When they weren't breaking down they were probably a better choice of unit than the commuter train 185, at least during off peak hours when the 1/3 and 2/3 door layout wasn't too important.

 

[northwichcat]

You could argue the 175s were taken away from the TPE North West routes by South Wales. When they weren't breaking down they were probably a better choice of unit than the commuter train 185, at least during off peak hours when the 1/3 and 2/3 door layout wasn't too important.

On the Chester-Manchester via Altrincham line one morning peak service was booked to be a 3 car 175, so some people were used to getting a 3 car 175 every day to work. Northern took over and the service got downgraded to a 142 and later upgraded to a 150.

Although I think that booked working, together with FNW putting up posters at Mid-Cheshire line stations advertising their new trains, actually created a lot of disappointment for Mid-Cheshire passengers as most Mid-Cheshire line services were 142s, 150s or 158s and it was commonplace to see new 175s to be sat not in service at either at Chester or in Stockport sidings. Imagine being a commuter on the old 06:35 Manchester-Chester, which was booked to be a 142 and seeing the passengers going in the other direction getting a new 175 almost everyday.