Delay Compensation - A "secret" of the rail network?

[orpine]

I've become aware of the following during my more recent journeys that have included delayed trains.

a) If a train is delayed, whenever I mention to fellow travellers they're likely eligible for delay compensation (I just say "refund"), none of them ever know/have heard about it.

b) When I look around stations I don't think I've *ever* seen a poster advising passengers about delay compensation.

c) At most stations (including Birmingham New Street), the compensation forms aren't out lying around conveniently for passengers. You have to go and ask for them (and in the case of BHM, this requires finding the Customer Enquiries desk in the first place!).

d) Tannoy announcement end with "... is sorry about the delay and any disruption this may cause you". I've *never* heard this followed up with "Please contact a member of staff about the compensation policy" or similar. Not even the non-automated announcements.

Now, obviously this is tickling my cynicism buds which are thinking that while DfT may force the train companies to offer delay compensation, they don't force the companies to advertise that it's available or raise awareness about its existence.

I don't travel as much as many of you, so my questions:
1) Is this uniform across the country?
2) Are the TOC's required to do anything to make passengers away of these schemes?
3) Should the TOC's be required to advertise this?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Some staff are good at informing people, others are not at all. I have let lots of people know about it and none of them had any idea. Maybe if everytime it was late everyone claimed back they would run more on time as a form of encouragement!

 

[FenMan]

When Virgin were running CrossCountry with old loco-hauled stock I believe all onboard and station staff were very well versed in explaining compensation arrangements.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have a train ticket here. It's currently doing sterling service as a bookmark. On the reverse it has the following information.

"Issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage - see www.nationalrail.co.uk/nrcoc"

As I'm sure we are all aware, this is a contract that is entered into and applies equally to both parties. This sets out a passenger's rights to a refund and makes reference to operators passenger charters for specific information.

Why should the rights to a refund be advertised when it is just one of a number of conditions that applies? What about advertising the responsibilities of the passenger, such as the restriction that children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a passenger holding a ticket or appropriate authority to travel?

**EDIT**

As it happens, I do think that every ticket should come with a copy of the NRCOC so that every passenger understands the terms of the contract they are entering into. This is not just about whether or not they are entitled to a refund but also how and when they can travel, their responsibilities for having and retaining the correct ticket and where they can sit within the train. It would actually make the job of rail staff easier if the terms of the contract were more widely known and enforced.

O L Leigh

 

[Moonshot]

Passenger Focus did some research on this very topic last year.

Most passengers are unaware of this scheme in operation, though once they had found out and made a claim, research showed they were far more likely to claim again.

IIRC, wasnt there a court case where a passenger had actually abused this scheme ??

 

[jaigee]

b) When I look around stations I don't think I've *ever* seen a poster advising passengers about delay compensation.

London Midland post them quite prominently at Nuneaton.

 

[tsr]

I often find that Southern staff leave the forms lying by the upper ticket slot on top of automatic ticket barriers (if they are suitable) during major disruption. You can't get much more obvious than that, so I wish all TOCs with such barriers would do so (provided the area isn't prone to gusts of wind that could blow the leaflets around). But, depending on the flavour of the month for navigation bars, it can be quite hard to find on their website.

 

[rdeez]

I've seen London Midland adverts at stations advertising delay repay, even at non-LM managed stations (Stafford).

 

[DJL]

There was an advert on the new video advertising boards at Waterloo East for a while that mentioned delay repay

But actually, taking a sideways look at this for a moment, how often have you seen a sign in a supermarket that says "if your good go off before the best before date bring them back for a refund"

I can't say I've ever seen this so I don't see why I different policy should apply to the railways.
Personally I would have thought it was rather obvious that some kind of compensation would be available if the service is not provided as advertised - even if I didn't know what it was called or how to go about obtaining it.

TBH I've been entitled to delay repay more time than I care to count but have never bothered with it. It seems like too much hassle to me to get a few quid back on a £2000+ ticket

However now that I no longer have my travel card and pay daily I might be more inclined to seek a refund if my journey gets totally stuffed up

 

[ainsworth74]

I was on delayed East Coast service recently and a member of staff went through the whole train handing out delay repay forms. I'm lead to believe this is not uncommon.

 

[jnty]

There was an advert on the new video advertising boards at Waterloo East for a while that mentioned delay repay

But actually, taking a sideways look at this for a moment, how often have you seen a sign in a supermarket that says "if your good go off before the best before date bring them back for a refund"

Actually, they often have a little message to that effect on the side of packaged food in my experience.

ScotRail seem pretty good at this and in my experience will hand out the forms on the train when it's delayed by more than half an hour.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Must admit I had never thought of making a claim until I was travelling with a friend last year & delayed two hours, and she mentioned it. Had just never entered my head and yet it isn't the first major delay I've suffered. Don't think I was aware of the scheme at all!

 

[yorksrob]

There was an advert on the new video advertising boards at Waterloo East for a while that mentioned delay repay

But actually, taking a sideways look at this for a moment, how often have you seen a sign in a supermarket that says "if your good go off before the best before date bring them back for a refund"

I can't say I've ever seen this so I don't see why I different policy should apply to the railways.
Personally I would have thought it was rather obvious that some kind of compensation would be available if the service is not provided as advertised - even if I didn't know what it was called or how to go about obtaining it.

TBH I've been entitled to delay repay more time than I care to count but have never bothered with it. It seems like too much hassle to me to get a few quid back on a £2000+ ticket

However now that I no longer have my travel card and pay daily I might be more inclined to seek a refund if my journey gets totally stuffed up

Funnily enough, supermarkets did have a policy that if you weren‘t satisfied with the condition of the product, you could get a refund and replacement of the said product if you returned it to the shop.

I can‘t remember where exactly this was displayed, but it must have been prominent enough because I remember doing just that with a tin of all day breakfast which I had discovered contained no baked beans.

A friend of mine who works in retail management says that this policy ended when supermarkets started selling flat screen TV‘s and the like.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Southeastern have been good in my single experience. A points problem on HS1 led to a 61 minute delay between Ashford and Stratford. (05:43 ex Ashford). As soon as the delay reached 30 mins the On Board Manager came round handing out the repay forms. Submitted when my weekly ticket expired and got the voucher less than a week later.

At both Ashford and Stratford there are prominent signs about delay repay and racks of forms alongside the timetables.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I was on delayed East Coast service recently and a member of staff went through the whole train handing out delay repay forms. I'm lead to believe this is not uncommon.

Yes, and I've also seen platform staff at Kings Cross handing out forms to passengers on a delayed arrival, and heard on-board announcements by Guards advising passengers on delayed services to retain their tickets for their claim for delay-repay.

Nothing secretive about it.

 

[DJL]

Actually, they often have a little message to that effect on the side of packaged food in my experience.

That would be more akin to a note on the back on the ticket (which as has already been pointed out already exists, although maybe not in such obvious language) than to an large advert.

 

[dcsprior]

I was on delayed East Coast service recently and a member of staff went through the whole train handing out delay repay forms. I'm lead to believe this is not uncommon.

On East Coast they often announce Delay-Repay; when there's been disruption affecting multiple trains towards Kings Cross they've also handed out leaflets on the platform.

Having said this, there have still been a couple of occasions that I've pleasantly surprised my fellow travellers by mentioning it to them.

Why should the rights to a refund be advertised when it is just one of a number of conditions that applies?

Because it means the customer is more likely to go away happy despite the delay - and therefore more likely to use the train again next time. Perhaps this is why East Coast (who have direct competition from airlines for Edinburgh-London and Grand Central for York-London) are good at letting customers know.

 

[DJL]

Funnily enough, supermarkets did have a policy that if you weren‘t satisfied with the condition of the product, you could get a refund and replacement of the said product if you returned it to the shop.

I can‘t remember where exactly this was displayed, but it must have been prominent enough because I remember doing just that with a tin of all day breakfast which I had discovered contained no baked beans.

A friend of mine who works in retail management says that this policy ended when supermarkets started selling flat screen TV‘s and the like.

Isn't that a legal requirement? After all if it product isn't what it says it is then that's a violation of the trade descriptions act is it not?

 

[yorksrob]

I think the replacement of the faulty item is a legal requirement, but the offer to reimburse the cost as well may not be (I ought to further consult my friend in retail).

 

[DJL]

I think the replacement of the faulty item is a legal requirement, but the offer to reimburse the cost as well may not be (I ought to further consult my friend in retail).

Yes, you could be right there.

Which I guess is how some TOCs get away with offering vouchers instead of a cash refund...

 

[Kentish Paul]

Funnily enough, supermarkets did have a policy that if you weren‘t satisfied with the condition of the product, you could get a refund and replacement of the said product if you returned it to the shop.

I can‘t remember where exactly this was displayed, but it must have been prominent enough because I remember doing just that with a tin of all day breakfast which I had discovered contained no baked beans.

A friend of mine who works in retail management says that this policy ended when supermarkets started selling flat screen TV‘s and the like.

Wow, supermarkets again. Seriously, they were pretty good. Once bought a fine cake from well known supermarket only to discover a large bit of plastic in the middle. Took it back, cake replaced and £25 voucher issued. The cake cost about £1.00. (mid 1980's.) Kept us in food for a fortnight !

 

[VauxhallandI]

GA don't promote compensation in my experience.

The gate line staff do a marvellous disappearing act when there are major delays.

I put it to the station manager at Liverpool St that some of the many leaflet slots at the end of the platforms could have some delay repay forms in them but he told me they were contracted to have lots of useless crappy trips to a zoo forms in them.

However I was more than welcome to detour in to the ticket office and queue up for one when I am already massively delayed.

Screw you comes to mind.

 

[island]

But actually, taking a sideways look at this for a moment, how often have you seen a sign in a supermarket that says "if your good go off before the best before date bring them back for a refund"

More supermarket analogies badly applied to the railway.

Isn't that a legal requirement? After all if it product isn't what it says it is then that's a violation of the trade descriptions act is it not?

Normally it's the Sale of Goods Act that comes into play here.

GA don't promote compensation in my experience.

The gate line staff do a marvellous disappearing act when there are major delays.

I put it to the station manager at Liverpool St that some of the many leaflet slots at the end of the platforms could have some delay repay forms in them but he told me they were contracted to have lots of useless crappy trips to a zoo forms in them.

However I was more than welcome to detour in to the ticket office and queue up for one when I am already massively delayed.

Screw you comes to mind.

Or you could just download one.

 

[DJL]

More supermarket analogies badly applied to the railway.

Actually, I defending the railways in this instance

 

[Hellfire]

On Tues 14th. I boarded the 0656 Preston to Euston. It was already 40 minutes late at Preston due to signalling problems at Glasgow and Rutherglen and by the time we rolled into Euston we are nearly an hour late.

Surprisingly there was no announcement whatsoever on board to inform passengers they were entitled to claim delay repay. Those of us who take an interest in these things will have already sent in our claims. However there may well have been people on board who wrongly assumed as the delay was not directly the fault if VT they were not entitled to claim under the passenger charter.

This contrasts with the last time I was on a delayed TGV into Paris. Not only were there announcements about compensation but staff handed out forms on the train which could be taken immediately to the station office in Paris for a refund.

SNCF appears to have a much more up front approach to this sort of thing. Are VT just hoping that saying nothing will cut down the number of claims?

 

[orpine]

From the replies it sounds like it varies. London Midlands are apparently good, as are East Coast (but they're "nationalised" so I can't say I'm surprised, but maybe that's just confirmation bias).
Other companies not so much. Most of my delays have been XC and they've never mentioned it.
Warwick has the delay repay forms out, but at Leamington you have to ask at the counter, and I don't think I've ever seen a form about it.

But actually, taking a sideways look at this for a moment, how often have you seen a sign in a supermarket that says "if your good go off before the best before date bring them back for a refund"

Every single item just about says "if you are not completely satisfied with this product, please return it or phone us or...".

Why should the rights to a refund be advertised when it is just one of a number of conditions that applies? What about advertising the responsibilities of the passenger, such as the restriction that children under five years of age who are travelling free may only occupy a seat which is not required by a passenger holding a ticket or appropriate authority to travel?

Because - and let's be absolutely clear about this - People do not read everyday contracts. Yes you can lament it all you want, but they don't and I can guarantee you don't. And even if everyone did read every contract, >99% of people aren't lawyers. And ~50% of people have below average IQ's to compound that. Requiring people to read the T&C's is an absurd notion.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

From the replies it sounds like it varies. London Midlands are apparently good, as are East Coast (but they're "nationalised" so I can't say I'm surprised, but maybe that's just confirmation bias).

I can confirm that the operator of the East Coast service have been as proactive in announcing the availability of delay repay to passengers delayed during travel, whether or not the Company has been in state ownership (as at present) or in private ownership (as in the recent past

. . . . . Requiring people to read the T&C's is an absurd notion.

I strongly disagree. The basis for my disagreement is so fundamental and is so deeply rooted in widely discussed and published commentaries on our social, cultural, economic and historical context, that I feel no need to try to summarise it on here. Lets just say that even our country's magnificent and defining attempt to give power to the people, the Magna Carta, didn't presume that it is absurd for a person not to seek to understand what they were agreeing to, only that they not be deprived "except by the lawful judgement of his equals or the law of the land". But, I have to agree, that if you feel inclined to think that our nation should shift our sense of what is right and wrong so that it aligns with your sympathies for Becket or Camus and their interest in the absurd, then that's just fine with me.

What this proposition gives us by way of a challenge, is how to reconcile that wonderful sense of absurdity, with our massive cannon of accumulated Law giving power to the people during those last 800 years.

Which do you prefer? A state which makes decisions for its subjects? One that gives decision making authority to its subjects? One that creates an unrooted world defined in terms of created rules?

 

[VauxhallandI]

More supermarket analogies badly applied to the railway.

Normally it's the Sale of Goods Act that comes into play here.

Or you could just download one.

Because everyone can do that can't they.

Or they could just hand them out, it's called customer service :roll:

 

[orpine]

I strongly disagree.

The operative word in my post was was require. Allowing people to read the paperwork is fine, but requiring them to read the T&C's to know what they're eligible for truly is absurd because the vast majority of people won't and of those who do, many won't understand them.
You don't have to read the parliamentary statute that created the job centre (or any benefit) to find out every benefit you're entitled to - they advertise them all over.

 

[transmanche]

Because - and let's be absolutely clear about this - People do not read everyday contracts. Yes you can lament it all you want, but they don't and I can guarantee you don't. And even if everyone did read every contract, >99% of people aren't lawyers. And ~50% of people have below average IQ's to compound that. Requiring people to read the T&C's is an absurd notion.

As highlighted by Dave Gorman in his recent TV series Modern Life is Goodish; where he demonstrated that when hiring a Boris Bike as a casual user, you are faced with 39 (yes 39!) pages of T&Cs. Yet clearly they don't expect you to read all the pages, as there's an 'accept' button on the first page.

And then he identified an error in the T&Cs, which had obviously not been spotted - despite there being millions of bike hires since the scheme started.