Grand Central Chaos

[londonbridge]

Arrived at the cross for the 8.11 to Sunderland for our 12.45 ko with Southampton. TM announced a problem with the rear power car but assured us that we'd be moving shortly. Then it was passengers for York with any permitted tickets were allowed on the 8.30 East Coast. The train was then taken out of service and he tried to get us acceptance on the 9.00am EC but was apparently refused. Some supporters from both clubs with GC advances boarded but are reporting that they've had to buy new tickets. We were then allowed onto the 9.30 which gets to Newcastle at 12.35, which by the time you get the metro means missing most of the first half. GC and EC knew there were football supporters trying to reach Sunderland for 12.45, they should have reacted faster to get us on the 9.00. A group of us are getting taxis from Durham to make the ground earlier, don't suppose GC will be inclined to refund the taxi fares!

 

[anthony263]

Send Grand Central a letter stating the problems you suffered and send them a copy of the receipt for the Taxi fare.

 

[embers25]

Arrived at the cross for the 8.11 to Sunderland for our 12.45 ko with Southampton. TM announced a problem with the rear power car but assured us that we'd be moving shortly. Then it was passengers for York with any permitted tickets were allowed on the 8.30 East Coast. The train was then taken out of service and he tried to get us acceptance on the 9.00am EC but was apparently refused. Some supporters from both clubs with GC advances boarded but are reporting that they've had to buy new tickets. We were then allowed onto the 9.30 which gets to Newcastle at 12.35, which by the time you get the metro means missing most of the first half. GC and EC knew there were football supporters trying to reach Sunderland for 12.45, they should have reacted faster to get us on the 9.00. A group of us are getting taxis from Durham to make the ground earlier, don't suppose GC will be inclined to refund the taxi fares!

0811 is running and is 8 minutes behind your 0930 now so shoud arrive York right behind you!! However it's terminating at Hartlepool so not much use as the connection won't arrive Sunderland till 1330.

 

[Spaceflower]

It's not going to be a good day for you all round then......

Howay the lads

 

[londonbridge]

Just been through York and spotted Liam from the Sky EC documentary who was despatching our train!

 

[ushawk]

Theres a good chance that ticket acceptance for the 09.00 train was rejected as the train might have been fully booked or full up.

For taxi refunds, best contact GC on Monday morning - remember to get a receipt.

 

[6Gman]

Arrived at the cross for the 8.11 to Sunderland for our 12.45 ko with Southampton. TM announced a problem with the rear power car but assured us that we'd be moving shortly. Then it was passengers for York with any permitted tickets were allowed on the 8.30 East Coast. The train was then taken out of service and he tried to get us acceptance on the 9.00am EC but was apparently refused. Some supporters from both clubs with GC advances boarded but are reporting that they've had to buy new tickets. We were then allowed onto the 9.30 which gets to Newcastle at 12.35, which by the time you get the metro means missing most of the first half. GC and EC knew there were football supporters trying to reach Sunderland for 12.45, they should have reacted faster to get us on the 9.00. A group of us are getting taxis from Durham to make the ground earlier, don't suppose GC will be inclined to refund the taxi fares!

Wasn't a train timed to arrive at 11.50 cutting it a bit fine for a 12.45 kick-off?

Trains sometimes run late you know......

 

[CyrusWuff]

For taxi refunds, best contact GC on Monday morning - remember to get a receipt.

As an Open Access operator, I would suspect that GC would be less likely to accept a claim for consequential loss than a franchised TOC. Doubly so where a passenger *chooses* to take a taxi of their own accord...

The threshold for delay claims is higher and amounts lower than franchised TOCs as well: 25% of a Single or 25% of the affected leg of a Return for a delay of 1-2 hours, 50% for 2-3 hours and 100% for 3 hours plus.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

For taxi refunds, best contact GC on Monday morning - remember to get a receipt.

Have GC advised that they would pay passengers for taxis rather than continue to travel by rail?

. . . . Doubly so where a passenger *chooses* to take a taxi of their own accord...

This is what concerns me most about the advice.
If the Company had stated that they would pay for taxis as substitution for a delayed train, then I wouldn't be concerned, but my reading of the OP's post is that they took it upon themselves to choose to travel by taxi without the Company's prior approval.

 

[yorkie]

The taxi is at the customers' own cost.

The customers are entitled to delay compensation, though how the compensation is to be calculated is a tricky one in this case, as the passengers appear to have requested permission to travel to Durham instead, and this, I assume, was granted.

At a guess, providing the customers make their own way to Sunderland, and this is no later than the train to Sunderland option, it would seem fair to take their actual arrival time at Sunderland and compare that with the booked arrival time.

However the compensation amount will be (in relative terms) very low, as GC only compensate to the levels shown in the NRCoC, which is far lower than East Coast offer.

I'd be interested to hear what their actual timings were (including what time they got into the ground, and what time they got to Durham and how long the taxi took, etc). I see there were even more spare seats than usual after 31 minutes, when some supporters made an unusually early exit!

 

[Essexman]

I doubt you'll get the taxis paid but think EC should have accepted GC tickets in the cirmumstances. Allowing only about 45 minutes spare is cutting it a bit fine but probably unavoidable thanks to football selling it's soul to Sky TV and allowing TV to set kick off times with no consideration for fans.

 

[jopsuk]

EC may have refused to accept tickets because their train was already packed?

 

[455driver]

EC may have refused to accept tickets because their train was already packed?

Which is a point most people seem to be choosing to ignore! :roll:

 

[londonbridge]

I was really being tounge in cheek about claiming the taxi fare as I know we've got next to no chance of getting that back. And we didn't ask to detrain at Durham, that was what we just decided to do, figuring that we'd miss less of the match than by going on to Newcastle and getting the metro across. The way things were going I was thinking to myself that it would be just our luck to be told to buy new tickets for detraining early on an advance, even though we were no longer on the booked train. In the event the barriers at Durham were open so we went straight through.
Train was due at Durham at 12.22 and after finding our pre-booked taxi and setting off we eventually got into the ground at 13.00. One point that bugs me is that if we'd been allowed on the 9.00 there would have been no delay repayments due as we would have got to the Stadium Of Light metro by around 12.30 at the latest so wouldn't have been delayed by more than an hour.
After the match we got back to Sunderland station to find the 15.29 Grand Central was cancelled! We were told to go to Newcastle and take the 16.26 East Coast. Got the 15.30 Northern Rail and got to Newcastle in time for the 15.59 East Coast, but we weren't allowed on that one despite arguing with the despatcher and guard that we would get back to the cross at the same time as the 15.29 GC, had it been running-their argument was the 16.26 and the 16.59 were the trains that EC had agreed to carry GC passengers on.
Got back to the cross at 19.40, went round to St Pancras to get the 19.54 FCC directly back to East Croydon........yes, it wasn't running!

Wasn't a train timed to arrive at 11.50 cutting it a bit fine for a 12.45 kick-off?

Trains sometimes run late you know......

I do take your point and whilst we've been delayed on Grand Central before it is, of course, usually fine when the k/o is 3.00pm. It was just our luck that this had to happen on the occasion that we'd been picked for the 12.45 game. In fact we had a 12.45 game where we were delayed last season, although in that case we got in at around 12.20 and were still in the ground in time for kick off.

It's not going to be a good day for you all round then......

Howay the lads

How right you were! In the event, apart from forcing a draw after being 2-0 down, the highlight of the day was probably meeting Liam!

 

[Carlisle]

I think train companies should pay compensation when they seriously mess up someone's day like the cases above providing of course the passanger can prove it ,after all there are several scenarios where the said train companies will be quick enough to obtain considerable compensation from Network Rail for delays NR and other parties have caused so why should it not work the other way too ?.unless open access operators can't claim much/anything from NR when delayed by them etc in which case I take it all back

 

[grid56126]

I am sure someone will be along to correct me. The only OBLIGATION is to convey you from A to B and if your journey from A to B is delayed past the threshold for delay repay then you are entitled to that delay repay.

I am unaware of any OBLIGATION to be given compensation for consequential loss.

So in the case highlighted here passengers would simply be entitled to delay repay compensation ID they triggered the threshold. Nothing Less / Nothing More.

I am being simplistic but there HAS to be a yes / no answer.

Consequential loss surely HAS to be covered by the travellers own insurance (eg travel insurance) where they have chosen to take it out. If a passenger arrives late at an airport due to a train being late is there a contractual requirement for the TOC to buy the person another flight ticket?

 

[Moonshot]

I am sure someone will be along to correct me. The only OBLIGATION is to convey you from A to B and if your journey from A to B is delayed past the threshold for delay repay then you are entitled to that delay repay.

I am unaware of any OBLIGATION to be given compensation for consequential loss.

So in the case highlighted here passengers would simply be entitled to delay repay compensation ID they triggered the threshold. Nothing Less / Nothing More.

I am being simplistic but there HAS to be a yes / no answer.

Consequential loss surely HAS to be covered by the travellers own insurance (eg travel insurance) where they have chosen to take it out. If a passenger arrives late at an airport due to a train being late is there a contractual requirement for the TOC to buy the person another flight ticket?

That is correct........non liability for consequential loss is a common feature, not just for rail.

 

[Haywain]

And I am struggling to see why East Coast are receiving any blame over this. The OP didn't pay a penny to East Coast.

 

[455driver]

And I am struggling to see why East Coast are receiving any blame over this. The OP didn't pay a penny to East Coast.

Because these posters think EC should have loaded all the GC passengers onto their 0900 train probably filling it to standing capacity making the journey worse for their (ECs) passengers where-as EC agreed to convey them on one of their later/quieter services making the GC passengers later than they could have been which obviously isnt good enough in some peoples minds.

 

[Welly]

The title of this thread made me think of this song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyRZTAmcW7c

 

[D1009]

I think train companies should pay compensation when they seriously mess up someone's day like the cases above providing of course the passanger can prove it ,after all there are several scenarios where the said train companies will be quick enough to obtain considerable compensation from Network Rail for delays NR and other parties have caused so why should it not work the other way too ?.unless open access operators can't claim much/anything from NR when delayed by them etc in which case I take it all back

The delay attribution system applies in the same way to open access operators as it does to franchised operators, but the amount of compensation per delay minute is individually negotiated and agreed. However in this case it appears to have been GC who were responsible for the delay.

 

[bb21]

I think train companies should pay compensation when they seriously mess up someone's day like the cases above providing of course the passanger can prove it ,after all there are several scenarios where the said train companies will be quick enough to obtain considerable compensation from Network Rail for delays NR and other parties have caused so why should it not work the other way too ?.unless open access operators can't claim much/anything from NR when delayed by them etc in which case I take it all back

I was delayed by London Underground today and was 3 and a half hours late at my final destination. All I will get in compensation is £1.05 for my Oyster PAYG fare back.

I would have liked London Underground to compensate me in the same way a delay on a National Rail service would, but like your wishes, it ain't gonna happen. Sometimes life sucks.

 

[wensley]

Ticket acceptance is agreed for a given train or trains, it will be agreed between the two TOCs dependant on each other's loadings - in this case EC will protect their own trains from overcrowding with GC passengers' tickets accepted on trains where the capacity exists. It's a real shame when passengers can't make it to some events which are time-critical (eg. football), but unfortunately things can and do go wrong.

 

[Paul Duck]

Not having a good few days Grand Central. But not there fault today at least. Several customers organised their own mini bus this morning following cancellation of 1A60 at Eaglescliffe and then the failure of a Northern train at Longbeck which would have taken them to Darlington for 0826 East Coast service. They wont get money back for Mini Bus I imagine.

 

[Chrisgr31]

EC may have refused to accept tickets because their train was already packed?

As the OP says that some fans caught it but had to buy a new ticket it wasn't totally full (although we don't know if they had to stand).

The cynic in me suggests that fans bought tickets on Grand Central because it was cheaper and East Coast were making the point that had they spent a bit more they would have been on East Coast which on this occasion was running, and had there been an issue with one service there were plenty of other choices.

Incidentially I would also have left more time between by timetabled arrival at destination station and start of the game although as mentioned that can be an issue too.

 

[Lockwood]

I was on the 0800 EC service.
If I had a pound for every time that an announcement was made telling GC ticket holders to get off and board the correct train, I'd have made some pounds.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

The cynic in me suggests that fans bought tickets on Grand Central because it was cheaper and East Coast were making the point that had they spent a bit more they would have been on East Coast which on this occasion was running, and had there been an issue with one service there were plenty of other choices.

Yes, that and the fact that Southampton were playing SUNDERLAND. However I think its one of those chances you take with an OA operator, as there is little commercial incentive for EC to assist. This is not the case when EC assist Virgin and vice versa because they are on different routes and its mutually beneficially to accept each other tickets as its unlikely BOTH ECML and WCML will be disrupted at the same time.

Incidentially I would also have left more time between by timetabled arrival at destination station and start of the game although as mentioned that can be an issue too.

Exactly, how early do you want Southampton fans to get up? Sky are the villains here, scheduling what must be one of the longest journies in league football (not just the PL) for a 1245 kick-off. Madness. If they must schedule a lunchtime kick-off, at least pick a sensible one. Its the fans that go to matches that make the game not the armchair fans.

 

[jricha]

Me and my mate were also caught up in this mess on Saturday. We decided to chance our arm and get the xxxx EC to change at Newcastle (I had a priv any permitted return he had an advance GC only), despite multiple warnings from the TM that EC control said our tickets would be not be accepted. Luckily for us the TM was very reasonable and took the common sense approach and chose not to charge us for a new ticket, and with the metro connection to Sunderland we made it with about 5 minutes to spare.

What interested me was that the TM told us that GC and EC have had this problem before and they seemed to think that there was some ill feeling between the two on a manager/director level (something about GC being run by a load of ex EC/GNER staff or something). Whilst this may or may not be true it shouldn't be the passenger that loses out... and reflects quite badly on both TOCs in my opinion.

Oh and the xxxx was completely empty... maybe a quarter full with probably 2/3rds of the seats unreserved, so that certainly wasn't an excuse. I understand how advance fares work and that EC weren't getting any revenue, but in practise it was costing them nothing to transport the 50 odd Southampton fans, and if the others were anything like my friend, they would have made the ticket price back in alcohol sales on the 3 hour journey. Football fans are a pretty unique breed in that supporting their team is about so much more than money - my friend is a diehard and was ready and reluctantly willing to shell up the 120 or so quid to get him there in time - and this just felt like a pretty shameless 'we've got them over a barrel let's fleece them for as much as possible' approach, so thanks again to the TM for their excellent approach.

I notice the front of my ticket wallet holds the phrase 'National Rail: Britain's train companies working together'... it would just have been nice to see this in action.

 

[142094]

Not having a good few days Grand Central. But not there fault today at least. Several customers organised their own mini bus this morning following cancellation of 1A60 at Eaglescliffe and then the failure of a Northern train at Longbeck which would have taken them to Darlington for 0826 East Coast service. They wont get money back for Mini Bus I imagine.

Not sure what happened this morning - came into Sunderland on a Metro and the GC HST was facing wrong direction, so looks as if it went via Newcastle and Darlington. Couldn't find an explanation for it online.

 

[wensley]

Not sure what happened this morning - came into Sunderland on a Metro and the GC HST was facing wrong direction, so looks as if it went via Newcastle and Darlington. Couldn't find an explanation for it online.

Power failure at Billingham, 1A60 ran mainline, FTS Hartlepool and Eaglescliffe.