TfL Congestion Charge Consultation

[DynamicSpirit]

TfL are proposing an increase in the London congestion charge, as well as some other changes that appear aimed at making the charge fairer/easier to pay. They have released a public consultation on their proposals.

When I saw this I wondered whether TfL had ever put bus/tube fare increases (such as the one taking place in 5 days time) out to public consultations. I did a bit of searching but couldn't find any previous consultation relevant to fares.

So that gives two questions:
1. Do TfL use public consultations to inform fare increases? Have I missed something when I tried to search for but couldn't find any previous ones?
2. And if they don't, then why the inconsistency? It would seem odd if car drivers get to be consulted on congestion charge increases yet bus and tube passengers don't have the same opportunity to be consulted on fare increases.

Thoughts?

 

[Greenback]

My first thought is that the consultation appears to be open to everyone, not just car owners and drivers.

I must admit I would like to see more consultation regarding things like TfL fare increases, and the closure of ticket offices as well.

 

[bb21]

Can someone please explain to me why Residents daily charge is 90p, whereas if you pay in blocks it works out at an average of £1 a day?

 

[transmanche]

Can someone please explain to me why Residents daily charge is 90p, whereas if you pay in blocks it works out at an average of £1 a day?

It's 90p a day if you pay via debit/credit card autopay, which is doubtless cheaper for TfL to process than other payment methods (such as paying by phone).

I believe there's also £10 one-off fee to register each vehicle for autopay.

 

[PermitToTravel]

1. Do TfL use public consultations to inform fare increases? Have I missed something when I tried to search for but couldn't find any previous ones?

They don't routinely, and never have as far as I'm aware

2. And if they don't, then why the inconsistency? It would seem odd if car drivers get to be consulted on congestion charge increases yet bus and tube passengers don't have the same opportunity to be consulted on fare increases.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure that in practice this matters all that much, given that the charge will almost certainly increase regardless of the consultation response. I'm not too surprised by TfL's Surface Transport directorate choosing to consult on fare/charge increases, when the London Underground or London Rail directorates wouldn't - they are run entirely separately from each other, and ST do have a propensity to use consultations more than the rest of TfL put together. Looking at TfL's last 30 closed consultations, 27 were conducted by Surface Transport and 3 by London Underground.

 

[Bungle73]

TfL are proposing an increase in the London congestion charge, as well as some other changes that appear aimed at making the charge fairer/easier to pay. They have released a public consultation on their proposals.

When I saw this I wondered whether TfL had ever put bus/tube fare increases (such as the one taking place in 5 days time) out to public consultations. I did a bit of searching but couldn't find any previous consultation relevant to fares.

So that gives two questions:
1. Do TfL use public consultations to inform fare increases? Have I missed something when I tried to search for but couldn't find any previous ones?
2. And if they don't, then why the inconsistency? It would seem odd if car drivers get to be consulted on congestion charge increases yet bus and tube passengers don't have the same opportunity to be consulted on fare increases.

Thoughts?

I don't see how it is an inconsistency? Tube fares are a charge for a service - a charge that needs to be paid to run the system. The Congestion Charge is simply a tax. Different things entirely.

 

[bb21]

It's 90p a day if you pay via debit/credit card autopay, which is doubtless cheaper for TfL to process than other payment methods (such as paying by phone).

I believe there's also £10 one-off fee to register each vehicle for autopay.

Oh, so the buying in blocks is paying in cash/card manually if I get this right rather than paying for a block in advance?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm not sure that in practice this matters all that much, given that the charge will almost certainly increase regardless of the consultation response. I'm not too surprised by TfL's Surface Transport directorate choosing to consult on fare/charge increases, when the London Underground or London Rail directorates wouldn't - they are run entirely separately from each other, and ST do have a propensity to use consultations more than the rest of TfL put together. Looking at TfL's last 30 closed consultations, 27 were conducted by Surface Transport and 3 by London Underground.

Thanks for the explanation. That sounds like, even though the result seems somewhat unfair to public transport users, in organisational terms, there is a reasonable explanation for the difference.
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I don't see how it is an inconsistency? Tube fares are a charge for a service - a charge that needs to be paid to run the system. The Congestion Charge is simply a tax. Different things entirely.

Sorry but I don't buy that. When you drive, you cause congestion. In central London, that means you hold up buses, which directly costs TfL money. If the road you are driving on is one of the main roads that TfL is responsible for, then you are also benefitting from money TfL spends on road maintenance etc, as well as the money TfL spends on providing traffic information. So the congestion charge has a fairly clear link to cost/services provided as well.

You could argue that the link to costs is very fuzzy, and that it is clear that the pricing scheme for the congestion charge is based on political/overall traffic management concerns (the need to discourage people from driving) - and that seems to be characteristic of a tax rather than a charge. However that's also true of tube fares, which you do apparently do not classify as a tax: They are substantially higher at peak times and in zone 1 in order to discourage people from travelling on the busiest trains - despite the fact that those trains are likely to be the ones on which it costs TfL the least per person to transport people.

So arguing that one is 100% a tax and the other 100% isn't just doesn't hold up.

 

[Clip]

My first thought is that the consultation appears to be open to everyone, not just car owners and drivers.

I must admit I would like to see more consultation regarding things like TfL fare increases, and the closure of ticket offices as well.

Lets be honest here the answer to both issues would be no increase and no closures.

The idea of consulting all Londoners about the congestion charge is because traffic affects everyone, even if they dont go into central london often. Not every one uses the transport though.

 

[Greenback]

Lets be honest here the answer to both issues would be no increase and no closures.

The idea of consulting all Londoners about the congestion charge is because traffic affects everyone, even if they dont go into central london often. Not every one uses the transport though.

Transport also affects everyone - if London's public transport is not functioning well it has an effect on the economy of the city, visitor numbers.

Even if someone doesn't use a bus, train, tube or tram they are affected by their presence, and their capablity to carry people around the city.

A consultation about fares and closures would not have to put forward an option of no fare increases or closures, but could instead gather useful information about how various options would be received. Or for how the changes should be implemented.

 

[transmanche]

It's 90p a day if you pay via debit/credit card autopay, which is doubtless cheaper for TfL to process than other payment methods (such as paying by phone).

I believe there's also £10 one-off fee to register each vehicle for autopay.

Oh, so the buying in blocks is paying in cash/card manually if I get this right rather than paying for a block in advance?

Yes, if memory serves; before the advent of CC Autopay in 2011, you couldn't purchase individual days with a resident discount - only 'blocks' of periods. (And indeed is the only way to pay for individual days now.)

As CC Autopay gives 10% off the standard charge, TfL have applied this to the residents' discount too.