Checking whether a minor loophole ticket is valid

[gpmartin]

Hello everyone

I have been lurking for a while, but this is my first post. With the new year's fares rise, I decided to have a look and see whether I can make any savings on my regular commuting ticket by changing the origin and destination stations. I've managed to find a ticket that I think is valid: I can get an itinerary on NRE, and the ticket in question is valid for break of journey, and so I presume starting short is OK. However, I would like to make sure I'm right by checking against the knowledge of forum members here!

Before doing so, I just want to check whether I should post the details of the ticket publicly in the open forum, or whether I should wait for people to offer to discuss by PM. The ticket in question is not a massive anomaly or glaring loophole - it will only save me about 10% on the price of my ticket, but given that the ticket costs over £10 and I'll be making the trip 100-150 times this year, the savings will stack up. Nevertheless, I've seen that people say that this forum is a source for TOCs trying to close loopholes, and I don't want to ruin things for other people who may be using it with my first post.

So please let me know whether I should give more details now, or await contact via PM and keep quiet in the meantime. Many thanks!

 

[maniacmartin]

Because you are a new user who hasn't made many posts, an admin might have to enable your PM abilities. I'd be happy to look over the ticket details however.

You say that the ticket costs over £10 - that sounds to me like you intend to buy a separate ticket every day. Beware that if the anomaly is exposed (e.g. if you are questioned about it by a member of rail staff), the loophole might be closed at any point.

 

[soil]

You could post the journey instead, and then ask for posters here to do their best.

 

[yorkie]

If you post the journey, and it is a loophole that can be closed, you would need to buy an Annual pretty quick to get a decent use out of it, as any ticket purchased after changes are made are subject to the new T&Cs.

But if you purchase a ticket before changes are made, then the T&Cs on the date of purchase prevail throughout the validity of the ticket.

 

[soil]

I mean post the intended journey, not the loophole ticket covering it.

 

[gpmartin]

Thanks folks. The journey in question is Derby to Leicester, day return, travelling out at peak times. £12.80 standard day return, currently. I do the trip about three times a week on average, not quite enough to make a season ticket worthwhile, though I do occasionally get a seven-day ticket.

To call the other ticket I've found a 'loophole' is perhaps overstating it a bit - it's only a marginal saving, and not an outlandish or improbable route at all. In fact if you know the geography of the East Midlands, you can probably guess what it is quite easily. Still, I'll be interested to see what suggestions people come up with! Thanks.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, yes I can guess then. In which case, look at which stations are the same price (brfares.com's expert mode does this) and buy from a lesser-known station if possible, and also if an itinerary is available on the EMT site I'd print that off as evidence of validity (yes the Routeing Guide is supposedly authoritative but I find it easier to show an itinerary from the Company's own website if possible).

 

[maniacmartin]

I think I've guessed it. I'll PM

 

[yorkie]

Actually it may only be valid via Derby for "interchange purposes only"...

The cat is out the bag now, you may as well reveal what it is!

 

[ryan125hst]

In which case, look at which stations are the same price (brfares.com's expert mode does this)

BR Fares is down at the minute Yorkie! I was only on it earlier on and also saw a thread that you posted in (I think it was posted today) where you linked to the site. Hopefully it will be back up and running again soon.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95112

 

[yorkie]

BR Fares is down at the minute Yorkie!

Not for me it isn't, and never has been. (any issues are domain related so it depends on your DNS provider)

Flow Origin Q178
Cluster
1624 ATTENBOROUGH
1865 BULWELL
6202 LOWDHAM
6241 NETHERFIELD
1625 BEESTON
6200 BURTON JOYCE
6203 THURGARTON
6351 FISKERTON
1826 NOTTINGHAM.
6201 CARLTON
6204 BLEASBY

Flow Destination Q339
Cluster
1881 NARBOROUGH
1900 SYSTON
1947 LEICESTER.
1949 SOUTH WIGSTON

Nottingham - Derby Group - Leicester is mapped, however doubling back within Derby group is (only) permitted "for interchange purposes"

 

[bb21]

Yes, valid for "interchange purposes only", and not for starting/stopping short strictly speaking.

For the first time in yonks, there is now a differential in Off-Peak Day Returns too, which has been the same for both flows for a good many years.

That said, I wouldn't normally purchase either ticket, unless I am actually going to Derby and no further, especially for splits.

No, I wouldn't call it a loophole either.

 

[LexyBoy]

Yes, valid for "interchange purposes only", and not for starting/stopping short strictly speaking.

If NRE shows it as valid then it is, after all the Routeing Guide tells us to defer to it...

 

[bb21]

If NRE shows it as valid then it is, after all the Routeing Guide tells us to defer to it...

NRE shows permitted routes between Nottingham and Leicester, not between Derby and Leicester.

It is at least debatable whether the matter is complicated by the involvement of a break of journey. I don't have the answer unfortunately and the only reference I can find is through the paper version of the Routeing Guide, which states that doubleback with an intermediate Routeing Point Group is permitted for "interchange purposes only".

 

[gpmartin]

Yes, maniacmartin guessed correctly - as I said, it wasn't exactly the most ingenious or creative idea! I wasn't aware of the 'interchange only' rule so I'm glad I asked.

Clearly this will apply to single/return tickets, but does it apply to seasons too? In other words, could someone with a NOT-LEI season ticket not use it to travel to DBY? (Partly out of interest; partly to see if I can legitimately purchase a seven-day season from time to time to do the journeys I want to!)

 

[bb21]

Season tickets allow break of journey at any intermediate station. They have the same permitted routes as single-journey tickets.

 

[gpmartin]

Thanks - sorry, this is probably a stupid question for people who know the lingo, but would Derby count as an intermediate station in the example above? So a season ticket would allow BOJ (and exiting the station) where a return would only allow interchange remaining within the station?


Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro1_500 using Tapatalk

 

[bb21]

Thanks - sorry, this is probably a stupid question for people who know the lingo, but would Derby count as an intermediate station in the example above? So a season ticket would allow BOJ (and exiting the station) where a return would only allow interchange remaining within the station?

"Intermediate" is probably not the best choice of word from my part, but your season ticket would not give you any more validity than one-journey tickets in terms of routeing. You are not allowed to start/stop short at Derby not because of a BoJ restriction, but a routeing one, so whether you have a season ticket or a one-journey ticket makes no difference in this respect imo. (Yes, I know some people will argue that because NRE gives you such a route on a Nottingham ticket, etc.)

It is a different question as to whether this is actually enforceable, especially when the gates are not in operation.

 

[ryan125hst]

Not for me it isn't, and never has been. (any issues are domain related so it depends on your DNS provider)

Did you access it at all yesterday afternoon (between 12pm and 7pm). I tried several times and got a message from GoDaddy saying that the domain had expired. A few other forum members reported it in the linked thread. It's working again now though thank goodness. It's a useful site.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
I travel from Nottingham & Derby to Leicester fairly often.

I looked into using a Nottingham - Leicester ticket as a way to reduce the trip to/from Derby. It doesn't really work out. There's on old thread on it somewhere... What I found was that a Nottingham - Leicester ticket (eg anytime return or a season) is valid at any of the stations between:
Nottingham - East Midlands Parkway - Leicester
or Nottingham - Long Eaton - East Midlands Parkway - Leicester
for getting on or off.

I was also able to go Nottingham - Derby - Leicester but not I didn't try to leave the station at Derby.


I never found a loophole for Derby - Leicester. The best I found was that the 7 day season from Long Eaton, now £43 or the anytime day return is £10, which worked out OK for me as there's plenty of free parking around there instead of having to pay in Derby. That non-railway bit made all the difference...

Cheers,
Jason

 

[yorkie]

Thanks - sorry, this is probably a stupid question for people who know the lingo, but would Derby count as an intermediate station in the example above? So a season ticket would allow BOJ (and exiting the station) where a return would only allow interchange remaining within the station?

It's a debateable point. You can produce evidence to say that you can start/finish a journey at Derby, but I wouldn't like to be arguing that in Court

Did you access it at all yesterday afternoon (between 12pm and 7pm). I tried several times and got a message from GoDaddy saying that the domain had expired. A few other forum members reported it in the linked thread. It's working again now though thank goodness. It's a useful site.

Yes, all afternoon, it depends on your DNS provider

 

[ryan125hst]

Yes, all afternoon, it depends on your DNS provider

It looks like my DNS took a lot longer to update then! I couldn't get on it at around 3pm and it was still down at around 7pm.

 

[gpmartin]

Thanks everyone - given these responses, I've stuck with the £12.80 anytime day return, as I only wanted to use the cheaper ticket if I could be sure of its validity.

A little bit of a silver lining is that I've found a season ticket that costs the same as DBY-LEI, but which offers much wider validity (and is definitely valid between Derby and Leicester too). So on those occasions when I do buy a seven-day season, I'll be able to use it to travel a little further afield at the weekend, if I get the chance. Message me if you want details.