My idea for a single Midlands franchise post 2017

[thenorthern]

I don't know if this had been discussed yet but has there been any official mention of what is going to happen with the East Midlands and the West Midlands franchises happening post 2017 when the franchises are due to expire.

Personally I would like to see a single Midlands Franchise again as I thought this allowed better connections for far out places such as Lincoln and Hereford although I doubt this is going to happen.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would anything happen at all? Are there any fore-warnings of this happening in an RUS or similar? Combining franchises or making major changes to responsibilities at expiry is not a normal process, I'm sure the authors of the 2007 changes that produced the current LM/XC/EMT boundaries didn't see them as lasting just for one period.

The TSGN changes are a bit of a special case, as the Thameslink final 2018 timetable (when decided) was always going to capture part of SNs and SEs services anyway.

TPE/Northern combination is the other possible change, but it seems a bit up in the air.

 

[Class172]

One thing that may come up is Chiltern potentially taking over the Snow Hill Lines, with the 172s being subsumed into the franchise.

 

[tbtc]

Personally I would like to see a single Midlands Franchise again as I thought this allowed better connections for far out places such as Lincoln and Hereford although I doubt this is going to happen.

There's nothing to stop EMT running from Lincoln to Liverpool or Crewe, just like LM could run from Hereford to Milton Keynes or Stafford.

Just because two places are served by the same TOC doesn't mean they get a direct link.

For example, there's not been much daily integration between the "MM" and the "Central Trains" bits of EMT (other than one 222 from Nottingham to London starts its journey at Lincoln) since they became part of the same franchise. Only one Voyager a day at Nottingham to show that the "Central Trains" and "Virgin Cross Country" are part of the same franchise now (and not completely separate operations). Barrow didn't get a through train to Yorkshire when TPE took the service over from FNW.
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One thing that may come up is Chiltern potentially taking over the Snow Hill Lines, with the 172s being subsumed into the franchise.

I've always liked this idea - the trouble is what you do with the remaining bits of LM.

Marston Vale could be part of Chiltern - or even Great Western - once its electrified (with services through to Oxford etc).

Birmingham - Shrewsbury would fit with with Wales & Borders - Birmingham to Hereford could go to Wales & Borders or to XC (especially as this would leave the remaining LM "rump" a wholly electrified franchise, post 2019).

 

[Golden Gripper]

There's nothing to stop EMT running from Lincoln to Liverpool or Crewe, just like LM could run from Hereford to Milton Keynes or Stafford.

Just because two places are served by the same TOC doesn't mean they get a direct link.

No, but places do get links because they are in one franchise. For instance the Wales and Borders franchise specifies a Manchester - Cardiff service, but ATW extends it to west Wales to improve connectivity.

However, there are all sorts of restrictions placed on franchises which restrict their scope of action because of the interests of other franchises (for instance, with 'grandfather' pathing rights). The railway system isn't best served by having such a fragmented structure; one single organisation is best if you have one single network.

 

[edwin_m]

DfT's franchise replacement timetable didn't include any changes to the scope of either of these franchises.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The impression I get is that the DfT is well pleased with the EM/LM split.
Central was a sprawling high-subsidy operation, whereas EMT and LM have both got a decent mix of busy local and long distance services.
The local authorities also seem to like having a "tame" local TOC.
The interloper is XC, especially the ex-Central routes.
It also puts the Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough corridor neither in EM nor LM territory.
I could see the XC routes being reworked at the next franchise change, but that is not till 2019.
By then we will have a burgeoning electrified network and a potentially different set of routes (eg with MML, east-west and electric spine).
So in the short term, I suspect there will be little boundary change.
Depending on how Northern/TPE ends up, LM may expand northwards (eg Preston, Manchester).

 

[thenorthern]

I know that they would never do this but would it work better if the Network West Midlands services were transferred to a new operator in a similar way how London Overground works?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

You can play all sorts of games with franchise mapping - one idea some years ago was a "Midland and Northern" conglomerate - a sort of quasi "Regional Railways" re-invented. Another idea was splitting the then Connex SC into 3 "metro , coast to London and "other") -as Thameslink Southern Great Northern show- there are / will be some economies of scale in larger organisations as opposed to small ones.

 

[Class172]

I've always liked this idea - the trouble is what you do with the remaining bits of LM.

Marston Vale could be part of Chiltern - or even Great Western - once its electrified (with services through to Oxford etc).

Birmingham - Shrewsbury would fit with with Wales & Borders - Birmingham to Hereford could go to Wales & Borders or to XC (especially as this would leave the remaining LM "rump" a wholly electrified franchise, post 2019).

Well, I've looked at the timetables a couple of times in the past, and the current LM services to/from Hereford could easily be combined with the XC Leicester/Stansted services, which also frees up room at New St. Stock transfer would also be more straightforward, as the line uses 170s.

 

[edwin_m]

Well, I've looked at the timetables a couple of times in the past, and the current LM services to/from Hereford could easily be combined with the XC Leicester/Stansted services, which also frees up room at New St. Stock transfer would also be more straightforward, as the line uses 170s.

Prior to about 2002 they worked through with the Birmingham-Nottinghams.

Any system with geographical routes is bound to have places where there are overlaps and anomalies, unless you force everyone to change at the boundary like some of the old municipal trams used to. And in any organisation it's usually very easy to see what's wrong with the current setup and lose sight of the things that are working well and therefore rarely need management attention. This can lead to the "grass is greener" syndrome, otherwise known as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[LowLevel]

There were through workings as late as 2006 if not into 2007 - I used to regularly catch the 1838 Derby to Hereford on a Saturday evening!

 

[edwin_m]

There were through workings as late as 2006 if not into 2007 - I used to regularly catch the 1838 Derby to Hereford on a Saturday evening!

Thanks - perhaps something to do with the LM/EMT split then. I was confusing it with the earlier Central Trains amputations such as Manair-Skegness and Lincoln-Leicester-Shrewsbury.

 

[TDK]

There was a suggestion put a few years back from the Dft to reduce the number of franchises initially to 11 I think and then down to 6.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I prefer franchises with Long/Medium distances then local services it gives incentives to connect services better.

That doesn't mean some services wouldn't be better with others. I like what others have suggested with Snow Hill Lines and Marston Vale going to Chiltern. Some of the long distance 170 routes transferring to XC or Wales and Borders. So from 2020 the LM franchise becomes all electric. EMT i always find very difficult. Manchester-Norwich EMT, Liverpool-Nottingham TPE.

 

[The Planner]

I prefer franchises with Long/Medium distances then local services it gives incentives to connect services better.

The down side of that is that people then can't moan if trains get cut short when it goes belly up.

 

[jimm]

One thing that may come up is Chiltern potentially taking over the Snow Hill Lines, with the 172s being subsumed into the franchise.

Not sure trains branded Chiltern would go down that well in the Malverns... or make sense a very long way from the Chiltern hills. Would Chiltern's management even be interested in running West Midlands suburban services?

 

[Class172]

Not sure trains branded Chiltern would go down that well in the Malverns... or make sense a very long way from the Chiltern hills. Would Chiltern's management even be interested in running West Midlands suburban services?

Well as far as I was aware they considered it at the last franchise change, so there must be some interest for them.

Very few services from Snow Hill make it as far as Malvern anyhow. It's no different to EMT running to Liverpool or LM potentially to Preston.

 

[The Planner]

Id suspect they would be interested in the Dorridge/Stratford - Stourbridge/Kidderminster runs, not sure about the ones that go further afield to Worcester etc. Difficult to split them out though as they are interlinked.

 

[43074]

I think I would actually split LM between Chiltern (Snow Hill Lines), XC (Birmingham to Liverpool, Shrewbury & Hereford) and have either a separate ''Northampton Lines'' franchise (a la Silverlink) or merge with Virgin their West Coast stuff. The CrossCity Redditch to Litchfield, Wolverhampton to Walsall and New Street to International local services could be run by a concession like London Overground, let by Centro or whatever they're called today. Bedford to Bletchley is going to be part of East West and St Albans Abbey could be transferred London Overground or converted to light rail.
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Well, I've looked at the timetables a couple of times in the past, and the current LM services to/from Hereford could easily be combined with the XC Leicester/Stansted services, which also frees up room at New St. Stock transfer would also be more straightforward, as the line uses 170s.

I would combine the Nottingham to Birmingham service (the ones that don't run to Cardiff) though to Hereford because the way the unit diagrams work is that the Leicester line units work Birmingham - Leicester - Birmingham - Stansted - Birmingham etc. so they only occupy a platform for 15 minutes maximum at New Street. The Nottingham services use a platform for 30 minutes at New Street so it makes more sense to extend these. And (as per my earlier suggestion) merge the service with XC. Not that any of that will happen in the near future of course.

 

[thenorthern]

I like the idea of having a Birmingham Overground for Cross-City Line, I would also include the Walsall Line and Stopping trains to Wolverhampton.

I think that Midland Mainline should be a separate operator again as well.

 

[43074]

I think that Midland Mainline should be a separate operator again as well.

Seconded, but what do you do with the East Mids local routes after you've done that, because they require a lot of subsidy.

 

[SS4]

I like the idea of having a Birmingham Overground for Cross-City Line, I would also include the Walsall Line and Stopping trains to Wolverhampton.

I think that Midland Mainline should be a separate operator again as well.

I'd be tempted to add the Snow Hill lines into a local WM franchise with those (can't see the black country being too happy about being in the Birmingham lines ) at least from Solihull to Stourbridge and ideally Dorridge to Kidderminster. Fares wise I would also bring Stourbridge - Kidderminster, Water Orton and Coleshill Parkway into the NWM area.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Seconded, but what do you do with the East Mids local routes after you've done that, because they require a lot of subsidy.

I'd keep the mainline and local side together, and add Birmingham-Stansted and Nottingham-Cardiff into the mix on that franchise to make the operations a little simpler. The XC services are pretty much self contained and have their own links supplying traincrew, so it'd be easy enough to separate them.

 

[Qwerty133]

I would group EMT mainline (NOT Corby) services with Virgin (excluding Birmingham to Scotland) and EC to make a London intercity franchise. I would remove Birmingham to Leicester/Stanstead/Nottingham/Cardiff services from XC and add Birmnigham to Scotland services from Virgin into XC, and transfer some Voyagers to XC. I would then merge local EMT services, the services removed from XC and London midland diesel services and the crosscity in Birmingham and have a internal stock reorganisation and all depots being cleared on all units (except 323s). Corby services and LM services out of Euston would go to a new franchise (Outer London Commuter services) and LM services between Birmingham and Liverpool would go to transpennine express.

 

[Class172]

There were through workings as late as 2006 if not into 2007 - I used to regularly catch the 1838 Derby to Hereford on a Saturday evening!

I distinctly remember them running into 2007, as I remember seeing them on the departure boards.

I would combine the Nottingham to Birmingham service (the ones that don't run to Cardiff) though to Hereford because the way the unit diagrams work is that the Leicester line units work Birmingham - Leicester - Birmingham - Stansted - Birmingham etc. so they only occupy a platform for 15 minutes maximum at New Street. The Nottingham services use a platform for 30 minutes at New Street so it makes more sense to extend these. And (as per my earlier suggestion) merge the service with XC. Not that any of that will happen in the near future of course.

I wasn't aware that the Leicester locals and Stansteds interworked like that. Yes, the potential HFD-NOT service could just revert to as it was previously - I'm sure in the RUS they proposed an extra cross-city service on this route to Tamworth, though there were pathing issues with the extra services.

 

[Kettledrum]

Not sure trains branded Chiltern would go down that well in the Malverns... or make sense a very long way from the Chiltern hills. Would Chiltern's management even be interested in running West Midlands suburban services?

Chiltern's management is ultimately Arriva and then DB, so they run a variety of different services elsewhere.

I'm sure that however, DfT bundle the services, Chiltern/Arriva/DB would be bidding, and would probably be keen to retain the strong Chiltern brand - so they would be interested.

It will be interesting to see if the DfT bundle some of the most profitable routes into London with some of the subsidized routes in the provinces - perhaps XC routes or Birmingham commuter services.

This was the model used for the East Midlands franchise and also the London Midland franchise - Why not Chiltern too?