Why don't people carry cash?

[WelshBluebird]

But many (most?) TOCs state that they will only sell full price undiscounted tickets on their trains where there was an opportunity to buy before boarding. It would therefore follow that the UFN would be for the same fare.

But we aren't just talking about when there is an opportunity to buy before boarding.

 

[Haywain]

But we aren't just talking about when there is an opportunity to buy before boarding.

You may not have been, but I was. And when UFNs were first mentioned by Flamingo, he was as well.

Nonetheless, UFNs provide a means of requiring payment which is legally enforceable which makes it an appropriate measure when payment is not made for whatever reason. Where there was no opportunity to buy before boarding, it would seem reasonable to issue a UFN for the relevant fare if payment cannot be made. For this reason, different TOCs use UFNs in slightly different ways as already mentioned: FGW to the next staffed station, Northern for return tickets etc.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You may not have been, but I was. And when UFNs were first mentioned by Flamingo, he was as well.

Nonetheless, UFNs provide a means of requiring payment which is legally enforceable which makes it an appropriate measure when payment is not made for whatever reason. Where there was no opportunity to buy before boarding, it would seem reasonable to issue a UFN for the relevant fare if payment cannot be made. For this reason, different TOCs use UFNs in slightly different ways as already mentioned: FGW to the next staffed station, Northern for return tickets etc.

Ok, we may go round in a circle here but...

If I board at a station without any kind of ticket issuing facilities, and my card is declined on board - entirely due to the inadequacies of the TOC and their inability to purchase machines that do the job or pay for higher merchant fees for telephone authorisations, why should I face any kind of penalty? (in the sense that a single is often only a few pence less than a return).

OK, there are lots of scrotes trying it on with the full knowledge that their card doesn't work. I don't know if my card will work or not, I usually pay cash, but one day I might have to use my card (cashpoint not working, forgot etc) and I find it doesn't work, even though hundreds of times in Tesco's it has worked fine. Why is that my fault?

Do any TOC's accept the new 'proximity' cards?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Ok, we may go round in a circle here but...

If I board at a station without any kind of ticket issuing facilities, and my card is declined on board - entirely due to the inadequacies of the TOC and their inability to purchase machines that do the job or pay for higher merchant fees for telephone authorisations, why should I face any kind of penalty? (in the sense that a single is often only a few pence less than a return).

OK, there are lots of scrotes trying it on with the full knowledge that their card doesn't work. I don't know if my card will work or not, I usually pay cash, but one day I might have to use my card (cashpoint not working, forgot etc) and I find it doesn't work, even though hundreds of times in Tesco's it has worked fine. Why is that my fault?

Its your fault because you can't pay for your fare. I give people the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time but where they are aware the card doesn't work, then they KNOW they don't have means to pay for their ticket. That's where I have an issue, its not different from getting on and saying "Hello mate, you'll have to give me a UFN"...err...will I?

 

[fowler9]

Its your fault because you can't pay for your fare. I give people the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time but where they are aware the card doesn't work, then they KNOW they don't have means to pay for their ticket. That's where I have an issue, its not different from getting on and saying "Hello mate, you'll have to give me a UFN"...err...will I?

It gets annoying when I don't have any cash, the local cash machine isn't working, the ticket office is occasionally closed and I know that my card won't work on the train. This doesn't happen very often to be honest

 

[island]

Its your fault because you can't pay for your fare. I give people the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time but where they are aware the card doesn't work, then they KNOW they don't have means to pay for their ticket. That's where I have an issue, its not different from getting on and saying "Hello mate, you'll have to give me a UFN"...err...will I?

It would be helpful if that type of passenger could be chucked out a droplight at 110mph

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Its your fault because you can't pay for your fare. I give people the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time but where they are aware the card doesn't work, then they KNOW they don't have means to pay for their ticket. That's where I have an issue, its not different from getting on and saying "Hello mate, you'll have to give me a UFN"...err...will I?

Until I read the posts on this forum, I didn't realise there were different types of debit cards - other than those that are specifically mentioned as not being accepted (Electron / Solo).

You don't resolve the question though. If I got on the train, thinking I had the means to pay for my ticket, and through no fault of my own the card was declined, why should I be regarded as a fare dodger? If I alight at the next staffed station, and the ticket machine accepts my card, do I receive an apology (or delay repay compo) for the inadequacies of the TOC, their equipment and agreements with their banks?

The question is, if I go to Tesco, and they cannot process my card, what would they do? As happened recently with some banks of course.

On the subject of the thread, if I am buying on the train, I generally pay by cash, or at least have enough cash to cover the fare. Nowadays it is easy enough to find out the fare in advance from the internet even if you don't buy the ticket itself in advance. This discussion, and the problems with some banks recently, just convinces me that cash has a future!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would be helpful if that type of passenger could be chucked out a droplight at 110mph

That's the down side of central door locking!

 

[bunnahabhain]

You don't resolve the question though. If I got on the train, thinking I had the means to pay for my ticket, and through no fault of my own the card was declined, why should I be regarded as a fare dodger? If I alight at the next staffed station, and the ticket machine accepts my card, do I receive an apology (or delay repay compo) for the inadequacies of the TOC, their equipment and agreements with their banks?

I wouldn't regard you as one if I'd never seen you doing it before, its if you got on my train every single day knowing we have to swipe your card, that's when it starts to develop.

The question is, if I go to Tesco, and they cannot process my card, what would they do? As happened recently with some banks of course.

I should imagine you'd be asked to pay in cash.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I wouldn't regard you as one if I'd never seen you doing it before, its if you got on my train every single day knowing we have to swipe your card, that's when it starts to develop.

I should imagine you'd be asked to pay in cash.

Fair enough.

Of course, the one causing the issue by having a dodgy card (or just paying by card for a small value fare), potentially allows others to travel free because you can't get round to them.

Do you think they plan it? Your turn at buying the ticket today, mine tomorrow.

I am sure the college kids who get on at one local station, and only go a couple of stops, plant the 'card paying' passenger at the door where the guard is. Even if their card works it is still a slow enough process for the others to get a free ride. If they had to buy daily often enough, a season ticket would be better value so they must be getting enough free rides to make it not worth having a season (or they are too thick to do the maths:roll.

 

[Llanigraham]

The question is, if I go to Tesco, and they cannot process my card, what would they do? As happened recently with some banks of course.

Quite easy.
They tell you to either have another means of paying, or do without!!

Or, as happened at a local petrol station, they call the Police, who did attend, and "held" the car until the person provided the funds in another way.

 

[DeeGee]

But we aren't just talking about when there is an opportunity to buy before boarding.

You may not have been, but I was. And when UFNs were first mentioned by Flamingo, he was as well.

Nonetheless, UFNs provide a means of requiring payment which is legally enforceable which makes it an appropriate measure when payment is not made for whatever reason. Where there was no opportunity to buy before boarding, it would seem reasonable to issue a UFN for the relevant fare if payment cannot be made. For this reason, different TOCs use UFNs in slightly different ways as already mentioned: FGW to the next staffed station, Northern for return tickets etc.

I gave a specific example of a situation when I would have no opportunity to buy a ticket other than a permit to travel, thus giving me permission to travel, then unwittingly tendering a card that, never having got a train before and having looked online and seen that Visa cards are accepted on board, isn't actually accepted on board.

I was told that, through no fault of my own having done everything asked of me, I would be charged the full undiscounted anytime fare from Aylesford to Strood, or even Ebbsfleet depending on the time of day where I would have to alight to purchase a discounted fare for the rest of my journey and a single back, or a return from Aylesford to my destination if that was cheaper and I knew what to ask the clerk.

Not only that, but my failure to pay would be kept on record.

And that's fair how?

 

[455driver]

Not only that, but my failure to pay would be kept on record.

And that's fair how?

Because if it wasnt kept on record you could do it every day and the TOC would be none the wiser, by keeping a record of it the TOC can see if you are genuine or a repeat offender.

That is unfair how exactly?

 

[IanXC]

If I board at a station without any kind of ticket issuing facilities, and my card is declined on board - entirely due to the inadequacies of the TOC and their inability to purchase machines that do the job or pay for higher merchant fees for telephone authorisations, why should I face any kind of penalty? (in the sense that a single is often only a few pence less than a return).

According to the Visa/Mastercard scheme rules the retailer is not informed of the reason for the transaction being declined. It is simply declined. It is therefore not officially possible to apportion 'blame' to the TOC for the declined transaction.

Do any TOC's accept the new 'proximity' cards?

These are all offline cards as far as I know so have no impact on acceptance or otherwise.

 

[island]

All contactless cards accept offline transactions, but the only train operating company I am aware of which accepts cards using contactless technology at present is Chiltern, and only at a very limited number of stations for a very limited number of fares.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I am sure the college kids who get on at one local station, and only go a couple of stops, plant the 'card paying' passenger at the door where the guard is. Even if their card works it is still a slow enough process for the others to get a free ride. If they had to buy daily often enough, a season ticket would be better value so they must be getting enough free rides to make it not worth having a season (or they are too thick to do the maths:roll.

Yes, you get that at one particular station I call at, when I have the same train two days in a row that picks them all up I tend to try to remember the ones that paid the day before and the ones that got away with it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Quite easy.
They tell you to either have another means of paying, or do without!!

Or, as happened at a local petrol station, they call the Police, who did attend, and "held" the car until the person provided the funds in another way.

Too late once you've filled you car with petrol (or belly with food) to hand it back!

Re calling the police, fine if it's a one off, but when the NatWest? banking systems failed the other week, it wouldn't have been one car, and there aren't enough police to impound a dozen cars at every filling station, diners in restaurants etc.

To return to the topic - I always have plenty of cash (in case I lose my cards or they fail) and I always have plenty of food in the house. Government advice re potential bird flue epidemic a few years ago - always have 2 weeks worth of food in store, oh sorry, that advice was not for public release, only for officials. Perhaps I overdo it, perhaps not. Some people seem to enjoy their 'just in time' lifestyles.

 

[fowler9]

Too late once you've filled you car with petrol (or belly with food) to hand it back!

Re calling the police, fine if it's a one off, but when the NatWest? banking systems failed the other week, it wouldn't have been one car, and there aren't enough police to impound a dozen cars at every filling station, diners in restaurants etc.

To return to the topic - I always have plenty of cash (in case I lose my cards or they fail) and I always have plenty of food in the house. Government advice re potential bird flue epidemic a few years ago - always have 2 weeks worth of food in store, oh sorry, that advice was not for public release, only for officials. Perhaps I overdo it, perhaps not. Some people seem to enjoy their 'just in time' lifestyles.

Ha ha. Spot on mate. "JIT" works great if you run a car production line. not if you are on minimum wage and trying to run a house so you can get by.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe it is the age that I am (68) but I have always carried a goodly amount of the currency of each country that I am in when there and this has never been a particular problem for me.

 

[34D]

Any railway experience? Retail or revenue experience? Transport experience?

Yes railway experience (management, several years ago). Yes to retail and revenue. And yes to transport (rail and bus) also.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Once offered 4 cans of cheap beer at Camden Rd during a ticket blockade...as ""payment" - let him go for his cheek....