My idea for: Pacer - Thurso to Penzance

[61653 HTAFC]

Maybe we should have a RailUKforums 'Kickstarter' to raise money for such a trip in 2019, before the majority if not all the pacers become hen-houses!

 

[6Gman]

Presumably some refuelling would be required en route?

I used to arrange charters - this would have been fun to plan.

To put it mildly!

 

[Beveridges]

142s hold a maximum of 800 litres per car. I think it will cover this distance.

You will need drivers who sign 142s to be route conducted by drivers who sign the route. This is possible.

There are plenty of 142s available on a Sunday.

Plenty of paths for a diesel train capable of running at 75mph (and above!) not stopping at all shacks.

The charter is possible - definitely so on a Sunday!!

Who would want to go on it though? Surely there is the case that this is torture?

 

[David Goddard]

Well if you gutted each car, carpeted it and laid it out with comfy armchairs in observation car style it would probably be OK. Use a three car 144 to maximise capacity (that's also where a bar and toilet facilities would go- people will need both of these on a ride like that!) To take in lots of the Scenic lines (as mentioned) would be good, as lets face it we are not talking high speed running here, more endurance.

On arrival at Penzance, offer passengers enough time to find fish and chips then set off again in the tracks of Brunel via Bristol, Bath and Box to culminate in a high, sorry, maximum, speed run into Paddington!

 

[ECML180]

I think this would be a brilliant charter to do! Sponsored for charity, great idea. No-one in their right mind would like the idea of being on a pacer for so long, but I'd love to say I'd done it!

 

[Beveridges]

You'd have to run this as a triple or quad of Pacers to make this pay for itself, thats assuming there are enough spotters willing to pay to be tortured.
A single pacer will never carry enough revenue to pay for the paths to run this!


One positive point about this charter. As Pacers are so damn reliable, the chances of a line blocking failure will be extremely low.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would be OK if comfortable armchair type seats were provided.

I am sure that it is not a good use of the English Language to have a sentence that contains the phrase "Class 142 Pacer" and "comfortable armchair type seats" in the same sentence....

Be careful, someone in authority at Newton Heath may suddenly decide to take this idea on on board as part of their 2014 maintenance depot New Year resolutions...

 

[Polarbear]

I think this would be fun - and good for the chiropractor trade afterwards too

On a slightly more serious note, how would such a run be routed? As I understand it, there are certain parts of the UK rail network that are "barred" to classes 142 & their brethren (such as B'ham New Street).

From memory, Penzance - Cardiff is ok & I assume that the Marches line would not pose a problem (could be a bit noisy on the curves at Shrewsbury). From there, up to Chester - Warrington, then the WCML to Motherwell.

After that, I'm not sure as 142 & the like have never had any regular work north of the Central Belt of Scotland.

 

[irish_rail]

Still be comfier than said trip on a voyager!

 

[Class172]

It would have to be N-S direction, since I have my doubts over if a pacer could tackle the Lickey Incline. Has one ever done it?

 

[Beveridges]

Still be comfier than said trip on a voyager!

I doubt it. Pacers have got very basic suspension & only two axles per vehicle. The ride is far smoother on a Voyager with its bogies and air bag suspension. Pacers are well known for giving drivers "bad backs" due to the rough ride quality.

A Pacer going at its design speed of 75mph for long periods (or its "real" top speed which is somewhere near 90mph!) is going to be an extremely rough ride and the noise would be so terrific you would have a headache after such a long period.

Then there is the poor seating. You'd better hope it isn't a Pacer with its original "Bus" type seats, or worse still, the old Miseryrail "refurbished" examples.

A Pacer would not be able to tackle the Lickey incline on its own and the coupling is incompatible with the banking locomotive, so it would need a different route on the South to North trip.

 

[matchmaker]

I think this would be fun - and good for the chiropractor trade afterwards too

On a slightly more serious note, how would such a run be routed? As I understand it, there are certain parts of the UK rail network that are "barred" to classes 142 & their brethren (such as B'ham New Street).

From memory, Penzance - Cardiff is ok & I assume that the Marches line would not pose a problem (could be a bit noisy on the curves at Shrewsbury). From there, up to Chester - Warrington, then the WCML to Motherwell.

After that, I'm not sure as 142 & the like have never had any regular work north of the Central Belt of Scotland.

There is also the small matter of Pacers being barred from most of the Scottish rail network!

 

[embers25]

I doubt it. Pacers have got very basic suspension & only two axles per vehicle. The ride is far smoother on a Voyager with its bogies and air bag suspension. Pacers are well known for giving drivers "bad backs" due to the rough ride quality.

A Pacer going at its design speed of 75mph for long periods (or its "real" top speed which is somewhere near 90mph!) is going to be an extremely rough ride and the noise would be so terrific you would have a headache after such a long period.

Then there is the poor seating. You'd better hope it isn't a Pacer with its original "Bus" type seats, or worse still, the old Miseryrail "refurbished" examples.

A Pacer would not be able to tackle the Lickey incline on its own and the coupling is incompatible with the banking locomotive, so it would need a different route on the South to North trip.

Surely one of the pacer transfers from fGW back north must have used the Lickey? Would it not make it with a running start.

 

[Beveridges]

Surely one of the pacer transfers from fGW back north must have used the Lickey? Would it not make it with a running start.

You would need a good running start *and* the railhead would have to be bone dry to even consider running a Pacer up the Lickey and even then I very much doubt it would make it.


How on Earth are we going to get around the matter of Pacers being barred from the Scottish network? I was never aware of this. Now that this has been brought to my attention I will have to say that this Charter is no longer possible.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Then there is the poor seating. You'd better hope it isn't a Pacer with its original "Bus" type seats.

The original bus type seating is far more comfortable than the individual bucket seats fitted to the refurbished Pacers.

Recognising that some will be in favour of one type and other in favour of the other type, I suggest two units of the suggested four with each type of seating and choice to be indicated on the booking form.

There are plenty of 142s available on a Sunday.

Don't forget the positioning moves, though... Positioning them on the Saturday isn't too bad, but could you return them by the Monday morning rush hour...??

 

[Katada]

Maybe if you attached a loco to it with a coupling converter wagon just in case?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are pacers actually 'barred' from Scotland? I thought it was simply that Transport Scotland had barred them from operating scheduled services in Scotland- presumably at some point in the last decade or so they were worried about their better pre-privatisation units being cascaded South. In any case, I'd have thought an exception could be granted for a one-off railtour.

It'd be good to have as many 'versions' of pacers included in the convoy as possible- with certain calls designated as 'changeover' points so that we can all experience the variety of interiors. We'd want 142s of Northern Spirit/Valley Lines refurbs; and one with either Merseytravel or the original seats, plus a 143 and a 3-car 144 which gives a length of approximately 105m. Maybe even sandwich one of the preserved 141s in the middle of the formation too!

 

[Boysteve]

I have found a 'theoretical' path for it Southbound on a Sunday in April. I say theoretical because I have only considered other Passenger Trains, in reality a passing loop maybe occupied by a freight train at the time I wish to use it, however it's a start. I can keep our Pacer away from Birmingham New Street but obviously the Scottish ban needs attention. Anyway here goes;
Wick or Thurso depart @ 04:00
Inverness avoiding line @ 07:30
Perth pass @ 09:50
(The first northbound service from Perth is 10:50 so no need to worry about passing loops on the Highland Main Line)
Stirling pass @10:20
Larbert pass @ 10:29
Cumbernauld pass @ 10:40
Motherwell pass @ 10:55
Carstairs pass @ 11:10
Beattock Loop used to allow 10:51 Edinburgh-B'New St-Euston pass
Lockerbie pass @ 12:08
Carlisle pass @ 12:30
Penrith pass @ 12:48
Tebay loop used to allow 11:36 Glasgow-Euston pass
Lancaster pass @ 13:47
Preston pass @ 14:08 and remain on fast lines with the foot down
Wigan NW pass @ 14:23 and take slow line to allow 11:58 Glasgow-B'New St-Euston to pass
Warrington Bank Quay pass @ 14:45
Crewe pass @ 15:07
(The 14:30 Manchester Picc-Swansea will have to use a platform on the Eastern Side of Crewe station)
Stafford pass @ 15:30
Rugely Trent Valley pass @ 15:40
Walsall pass @ 16:05
Take freight only line
Stourbridge Junction pass @ 16:30
Worcester Shrub Hill pass @ 16:57 (but have to wait to allow 15:07 Manchester to Bristol TM go through Abbotswood Jcn)
Cheltenham Spa pass @ 17:35
Yate pass @ 18:04 (but then wait for the 16:33 Paddington - Swansea to pass before joining GWML)
Bristol Parkway pass @ 18:18
Filton pass @ 18:20 (before the 18:23 departure to Temple Meads)
Bristol Temple Meads pass @ 18:27
Our pacer will then catch up the 18:10 Bristol to Exeter stopping service which itself is looped at Taunton to allow the 13:35 Newcastle to Penzance to depart Taunton first. I am unfamilar if our Pacer can share the loop at the same time or will have to use the Eastbound side of the station. Either way we can only depart or pass Taunton @ 19:23.
Ex' St.Davids arrive @ 19:57 but no point in departing until 20:10 due to the 19:24 Exmouth to Paignton stopping service.
Newton Abbot pass @ 20:35
Plymouth arrive at 21:15 but let 17:57 Paddington to Penzance go first.
Plymouth depart 21:50 (no point going 5 mins earlier otherwise our Pacer will be held to let the 20:05 Penzance to Plymouth cross Brunel's bridge first.
The Night Riveria would be passed around 22:30 close to Lostwithiel which is all double line.
Penzance arrive @ 23:40

 

[The Planner]

How are you getting from Walsall to Stourbridge? You'll have a job going that way!

 

[Bevan Price]

Are pacers actually 'barred' from Scotland? I thought it was simply that Transport Scotland had barred them from operating scheduled services in Scotland- presumably at some point in the last decade or so they were worried about their better pre-privatisation units being cascaded South. In any case, I'd have thought an exception could be granted for a one-off railtour.
!

I think the problem is that nobody has ever done - or needed to do - the paperwork and other testing to see if Pacers can get clearance to run on most Scottish lines. The cost of obtaining clearance would probably make the tour unaffordable.

 

[Class172]

Walsall pass @ 16:05
Take freight only line
Stourbridge Junction pass @ 16:30

Hmmm... that line's mothballed, so you're going to have a problem there.


If you want to avoid a reversal at New Street you can run via the Camp Hill line.

 

[Beveridges]

We're going to have to make this tour Carlisle - Penzance due to the Pacer ban in Scotland.

 

[David Goddard]

Hmmm... that line's mothballed, so you're going to have a problem there.
If you want to avoid a reversal at New Street you can run via the Camp Hill line.

Divert Crewe- Shrewsbury - Llandrindod Wells - Swansea District Line - Cardiff Central - Severn Tunnel - Filton Abbey Wood

 

[Rich McLean]

Divert Crewe- Shrewsbury - Llandrindod Wells - Swansea District Line - Cardiff Central - Severn Tunnel - Filton Abbey Wood

Or from Walsall

Walsall - Soho Junction - Galton Junction - Worcester Shrub Hill - Ashchurch - Bristol PW - Bristol TM etc

No reversals required and avoids New Street

 

[bb21]

Could always make this an all-England journey Penzance - Newcastle (or Berwick if possible) as long as Wales is avoided too.

 

[Butts]

We're going to have to make this tour Carlisle - Penzance due to the Pacer ban in Scotland.

That would be to bearable - removing the endurance section from Thurso down to the Border . I like the idea of "popping" into Wales en-route to Penzance, to further the agony of those onboard.

 

[rdeez]

Some of the mental images created by some of the posts are hilarious!

I also love that we've agreed you'd have to be mad to try it, and now we're in the planning stage.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing you'd have to consider is insurance and a risk assessment. If all the passengers have to be admitted to hospital with back injuries then someone has to be held accountable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the strictest sense of route availability, it is unlikely to be an issue as they are pretty lightweight. Gauge clearance etc. is likely to be another matter altogether though...

The potential issues with Pacers:
1. Less power than a 150 and apparently the 150s aren't powerful enough for a small selection of routes.
2. Slow acceleration and 75mph top speed which means pathing could be a difficulty on any mainline.
3. Double step entrance which means they have issues at a small number of platforms and a much larger number if you need to allow for the ramp being used.
4. Pacers struggle with sharp bends, squealing a lot and making a small amount of damage to the unit and track each time. The track access costs are actually proportionally high considering 2 car Pacers are 30m in length and have a 75mph top speed, so maybe the track damage is why.
5. They're slightly wider than Sprinters which may cause issues in places.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I seem to remember travelling on a Northern Trains refurbished pacer which had seats which were unsuitable for passengers with legs. Will there be wheelchairs to meet the train at it's destination? :P

 

[northwichcat]

I seem to remember travelling on a Northern Trains refurbished pacer which had seats which were unsuitable for passengers with legs. Will there be wheelchairs to meet the train at it's destination? :P

One of these presumably: http://www.pacerpreservationsociety.co.uk/uploads/1/0/5/2/10525174/6110324_orig.jpg

They do get passengers on (with difficulty):
http://www.mcrua.org.uk/chairmansblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/21072010411.jpg

As I recently pointed out this is what a pensioner thought of the Northern Pacer seating:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92469