Maximum length?

[DJL]

Is there a maximum length on a passenger train on the mainline?
(Also - is it different for an out of service train?)

With the exception of Eurostar I'm not aware that any in service passenger train has ever been more than 12 carriages?

Long distance trains on the SEML have been 12 carriages in the peaks for as long as I can remember.
Newer stock is higher capacity of course but I find it hard to believe that this alone means no increase in carriage length is necessary.

Metro services seem to be limited to 10 carriages in Southeastern land. I believe this is something to do with DOO (and presumably a guard - if there was one - not being able to move through the train)

Obviously most lines are currently at or near capacity in terms of number of trains so the only place to go is longer trains. This means lengthening platforms, which is happening in a lot of places currently - but only where they have shorter trains (as far I know).

Is 12 carriages the maximum length that passenger trains will ever be in the foreseeable future or might we one day see some 12 carriage platforms being lengthened?


On that note I wonder how long the platforms at the rebuilt London Bridge will be (or can be easily lengthened to)

 

[starrymarkb]

There were 15 coach 221s used by Virgin during at least one of the Chiltern Diversion weekends

 

[driver9000]

The Highland sleeper loads to 16 coaches if memory serves me. Going back to BR days a long time ago some of their services were longer than 12.

 

[Rich McLean]

Also the scottish sleepers, how long are they again?

EDIT: Already posted, 16 coaches

 

[DJL]

Well I guess that answers the question then!

So now it just comes down to which stations can practically be lengthened when the time comes.

Probably most of the ones I've ever used / been through can be without too much fuss.

There of course other considerations. A longer train means it will take longer for the driver to change ends at the terminus...

 

[Tubeboy]

I've seen pictures of charters in recent times with 13 or 14 coaches.

 

[DVD]

Is there a maximum length on a passenger train on the mainline?
(Also - is it different for an out of service train?)

With the exception of Eurostar I'm not aware that any in service passenger train has ever been more than 12 carriages?

Long distance trains on the SEML have been 12 carriages in the peaks for as long as I can remember.
Newer stock is higher capacity of course but I find it hard to believe that this alone means no increase in carriage length is necessary.

Metro services seem to be limited to 10 carriages in Southeastern land. I believe this is something to do with DOO (and presumably a guard - if there was one - not being able to move through the train)

Obviously most lines are currently at or near capacity in terms of number of trains so the only place to go is longer trains. This means lengthening platforms, which is happening in a lot of places currently - but only where they have shorter trains (as far I know).

Is 12 carriages the maximum length that passenger trains will ever be in the foreseeable future or might we one day see some 12 carriage platforms being lengthened?


On that note I wonder how long the platforms at the rebuilt London Bridge will be (or can be easily lengthened to)

Some Southeastern Metro services will be 12 car in the near future, especially from Jan 2015 when the London Bridge works mean Charing Cross services can no longer stop there and Cannon St peak trains are likely to be all 12 car.

All the rebuilt platforms at London bridge will be 12 car length.

 

[455driver]

Train length is limited by the clearance at the Terminal stations (not platform length), if there is clearance for 16 coach trains then you can run 16 coach trains, just because the platforms are a certain length doesnt mean you cant run longer trains, Alton is one example where 12 coach trains terminate at an 8 coach platform because the signals are remote from the end of the platform.

 

[DJL]

Train length is limited by the clearance at the Terminal stations (not platform length), if there is clearance for 16 coach trains then you can run 16 coach trains, just because the platforms are a certain length doesnt mean you cant run longer trains, Alton is one example where 12 coach trains terminate at an 8 coach platform because the signals are remote from the end of the platform.

While that may be true, you wouldn't run a 12 coach train if all platforms on route are only 10 carriages long...

Lengthening the platform implies that you would also move the signals, especially at the terminus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some Southeastern Metro services will be 12 car in the near future, especially from Jan 2015 when the London Bridge works mean Charing Cross services can no longer stop there and Cannon St peak trains are likely to be all 12 car.

Does that mean some new/cascaded rolling stock or a reduction in frequency?

 

[Eagle]

The Highland sleeper loads to 16 coaches if memory serves me.

Lowland too (it splits eight and eight at Carstairs).

 

[Ploughman]

Didn't some wartime trains load to 20 plus?

 

[tbtc]

No reason why you can't have a second Guard/ Conductor (etc) on board - if a train justifies over twelve coaches then that's getting on for a thousand passengers on board which ought to mean enough revenue to warrant a third member of staff.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Didn't some wartime trains load to 20 plus?

I think they had considerably shorter carriages, though.

 

[455driver]

While that may be true, you wouldn't run a 12 coach train if all platforms on route are only 10 carriages long...

Lengthening the platform implies that you would also move the signals, especially at the terminus.

Try asking the question you want the answer too then! :roll:

There is no reason you couldnt run 25 coach trains IF THEY FITTED IN THE TERMINUS STATIONS, they dont fit in the terminus platforms so they cant run them, there is no need for the whole train to fit at intermediate stations because the trains will have SDO or unit deselect fitted and the passengers in the coaches that dont fit will walk through into the carriages that do fit as is done now several hundred times a day at many stations, does that cover the question you havent asked yet!

I originally answered the question as asked and you have decided to change the question so I have tried to answer the question you didnt ask but probably will in a few questions time to save everyone else wasting their time.

This is another thread I cant be bothered with anymore!

 

[DJL]

Try asking the question you want the answer too then! :roll:

There is no reason you couldnt run 25 coach trains IF THEY FITTED IN THE TERMINUS STATIONS, they dont fit in the terminus platforms so they cant run them, there is no need for the whole train to fit at intermediate stations because the trains will have SDO or unit deselect fitted and the passengers in the coaches that dont fit will walk through into the carriages that do fit as is done now several hundred times a day at many stations, does that cover the question you havent asked yet!

I originally answered the question as asked and you have decided to change the question so I have tried to answer the question you didnt ask but probably will in a few questions time to save everyone else wasting their time.

This is another thread I cant be bothered with anymore!

The section you quoted was a statement not a question.

I already stated up thread that my original question had been answered (yes, longer trains are possible)

In reference to your point about SDO - yes I know that this is available on some trains (but not all). But obviously no one would run a service where SDO has to be used at every single station! (or even most stations). Especially if it always has to be the rear carriages that don't open. (I'm not sure if this is a requirement or simply convention - I would guess it is probably something to do with the driver needing access to the platform in case of issues etc.)

If you try and use SDO at every station it would be pretty chaotic on board the train at best, at worst you'd probably find some carriages that are almost empty most of the time.

tbh I'm not sure why you felt the need to shout at me. If you have a problem with my question or posts then I politely request that you either PM me about it or, if you prefer, simply ignore all future posts of mine.

 

[306024]

No reason why you can't have a second Guard/ Conductor (etc) on board - if a train justifies over twelve coaches then that's getting on for a thousand passengers on board which ought to mean enough revenue to warrant a third member of staff.

Apart from perhaps the cost? Unless these conductors are going to work for free. Most EMUs on the GEML are 12 cars in the peak, and have 0 conductors between Liverpool St and Colchester, all are DOO. On the odd occasion you see RPIs, they surprisingly don't find many (or indeed any) without tickets.

Dutch railways I'm told have specific agreements for the number of conductors on a train according to it's length.

 

[user15681]

Is there a maximum length on a passenger train on the mainline?
(Also - is it different for an out of service train?)

I think it's different for out of service trains or in exceptional circumstances. There's a video knocking around of a 23 car 375. A 12 car lost it's shoe gear on one side somehow. When it got to the next area that the live rail was on that side it had to be rescued by a 11 car from behind and then it ran ECS to Tonbridge.
Update: Here is the video.

Metro services seem to be limited to 10 carriages in Southeastern land. I believe this is something to do with DOO (and presumably a guard - if there was one - not being able to move through the train)

I think the limit on 10 carriages was/is due to platform lengths and power supply as well. A lot of work on platform lengthening and upgrading the power supply had to be done in order to run 12 car Metro services, which are starting to appear here and there, although I can't remember which ones.

 

[DJL]

I think it's different for out of service trains or in exceptional circumstances. There's a video knocking around of a 23 car 375. A 12 car lost it's shoe gear on one side somehow. When it got to the neutral area that the live rail was on that side it had to be rescued by a 11 car from behind and then it ran ECS to Tonbridge.
Update: Here is the video.



I think the limit on 10 carriages was/is due to platform lengths and power supply as well. A lot of work on platform lengthening and upgrading the power supply had to be done in order to run 12 car Metro services, which are starting to appear here and there, although I can't remember which ones.

I thought I had read that this upgrade work was done a great many years ago however they do couldn't run 12 carriage 465/466 for some reason. The 376 of course are 5 carriages so can't make 12

 

[SF-02]

12 car running begins in January once the Gravesend station rebuild is complete (currently being rebuilt over Xmas with re-opening on 6th January).

It will be semi fast services from Gravesend to Charing Cross / Cannon Street in the peaks and also some from Sevenoaks I think. Not many as SE are lacking stock and really do need some more as it is, let alone when London Bridge rebuilding begins.

 

[user15681]

I thought I had read that this upgrade work was done a great many years ago however they do couldn't run 12 carriage 465/466 for some reason. The 376 of course are 5 carriages so can't make 12

Works have been going on a while, if that's where the confusion is? I can't find recent documents to support it. I believe the upgrades are in the final stages, although I had been told 12 car 465 working already happens as far as Dartford on some services. The Gravesend remodeling happening now is to allow 12 car Metro trains through there, for example.

I think it's fair to say there were, and still are, a lot of obstacles to 12 car Metro services on SE.

There are a few problems at Charing Cross. In addition to what hwl said, platforms 1, 2 and 3 are very narrow at the unused country end of the platform. Platforms 4 and 6 are only 11 car long, with no room to expand, so SDO will be needed on the 465s. Platform 5 is unable to accomodate a 12 car 465, even with SDO, so would have to be only used by 12 car 375s.

Take a look at the Network Rail Route Plans. Page 21 of "Route A - Kent" details more about 12 car Metro services, whilst "Route A - Kent 2011 Update" shows the estimated timescale for 12 car Metro services to Dartford and Gravesend. Bear in mind they're from 2011 so the dates they expect schemes to be completed may be a bit out of date, but the information is relevant.

 

[hwl]

SE issues (in addition to rolling stock partially solved by quicker turn rounds at terminii and power supply in certain places)

There are platform length issues:
Woolwich Dockyard (10 car platforms) being a big impediment to 12 car SE metro services as 465/466 don't have functional fail safe SDO in the current 375/6/7/8 / 387 / 700 sense.

Also issues at some Charing Cross platforms with 12 cars made up from 466s as 2 x 466 are longer than a 465... so 12 car can be 3x465 only.

 

[DJL]

Actually I was referring specifically to the SEML when I mentioned work that been done, I thought, many years ago.

I can't imagine using 2x466 in a single train would be a favourable option anyway, though saying that I have seen southern do it with the 455/456.

I wasn't aware of the 12car Dartford services.

It will be interesting to see what stock they use to lengthen

 

[Hophead]

Even on the SEML, there used to be trains of at least 260m (& possibly, on occasion, 280m). These were boat trains of 12 coaches (3x4-car) with a Motor Luggage Van at one end.

 

[user15681]

Actually I was referring specifically to the SEML when I mentioned work that been done, I thought, many years ago.

I can't imagine using 2x466 in a single train would be a favourable option anyway, though saying that I have seen southern do it with the 455/456.

I wasn't aware of the 12car Dartford services.

It will be interesting to see what stock they use to lengthen

Oh right, I see, my apologies I misunderstood. There was an upgrade of the power supply some years ago, but there is still a shortage of capacity around London.

 

[hwl]

It will be interesting to see what stock they use to lengthen

The existing stock used more efficiently...
Mainly by reducing time sat at Termini as per previous thread on the subject.

 

[DJL]

The existing stock used more efficiently...
Mainly by reducing time sat at Termini as per previous thread on the subject.

Hmm, I didn't think it could be reduced much further tbh. Turnaround at Charing Cross is already pretty swift. I think it is longer at Victoria though and not sure about Cannon Street.
If they are using spare time from Vic to supplement chx and cst that would presumably mean the first major timetable overhaul on southeastern in years.

Do you have a link to the previous thread?
Attempting to search this forum is like an art form!

 

[badassunicorn]

I'm not 100% but I'm sure on some stock (315/321) some of the systems like doors won't work or may not act as expected to in formations longer then 3 units. Also, I'm guessing the gaps would be greater between trains as in certain places such as the stretch between Ilford and Stratford/Liv St the signals are so closely placed, in some places I'm guessing anything longer then 12 cars would overlap into the previous section

 

[DJL]

I'm not 100% but I'm sure on some stock (315/321) some of the systems like doors won't work or may not act as expected to in formations longer then 3 units. Also, I'm guessing the gaps would be greater between trains as in certain places such as the stretch between Ilford and Stratford/Liv St the signals are so closely placed, in some places I'm guessing anything longer then 12 cars would overlap into the previous section

Actually this is a good point - if the signals are spaced for 12 carriage trains then 16 carriages trains can't get as close together.
Although of course you'd hope that times when one train is stopped immediately behind another are minimal.

The signals on approach to London Bridge are pretty close together. It is hard to judge from the platform how close but I suspect they may already be only about 6-8 carriages apart.

I think signal spacing has more to do with line speed though

 

[route:oxford]

So what would be the longest unit that could run between two stations with at least one stop inbetween?

All passenger doors on the platform and no signalling issues...

 

[edwin_m]

I think signal spacing has more to do with line speed though

The signals have to be at a minimum spacing according to speed and gradient, with some scope for reduction if all trains have better brakes than the minimum standard. On most of the third rail network freight trains have to run below the posted speed due to signals being spaced for passenger trains with better brakes.

Capacity is measured with all trains running on green signals. If the trains are longer the minimum distance between them is only increased by the extra train length, which is only a small fraction of the minimum distance. However where signals are close together it is also possible that the tail of a longer train standing at one signal will still be in the overlap of the previous signal, or even have not passed the signal itself. In this case a following train would have to stop one signal further back than otherwise, so at times of disruption when trains are queuing up they will be further apart.