In your opinion.
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Weather related disruption - Christmas 2013 and New Year 2014
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In your opinion.
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RailUK Forums
Bishopstone
Established Member
You can't help some folk.
The Virgin Twitter feed yesterday (Christmas Eve) included an exchange with someone anxious on behalf of their elderly father, who appeared to have set off from the Sussex coast well after lunch time and needed to get to Preston. It appeared he wasn't likely to get to Euston until around 20.00, and the enquirer was asking what arrangements Virgin might make.
The problem is, if you always bail out last-minute chancers with buses and taxis, they and others will take those chances more often, and costs will spiral. The same goes for those who choose to ignore weather forecasts or fail to undertake basic checks before they travel - eg, will the network close early on Christmas Eve?
The Virgin Twitter feed yesterday (Christmas Eve) included an exchange with someone anxious on behalf of their elderly father, who appeared to have set off from the Sussex coast well after lunch time and needed to get to Preston. It appeared he wasn't likely to get to Euston until around 20.00, and the enquirer was asking what arrangements Virgin might make.
The problem is, if you always bail out last-minute chancers with buses and taxis, they and others will take those chances more often, and costs will spiral. The same goes for those who choose to ignore weather forecasts or fail to undertake basic checks before they travel - eg, will the network close early on Christmas Eve?
Go on then I will fall for it!
What provisions are provided and what do you think needs to change?
So you think East coast Trains (and every other TOC) should have fleets of buses and drivers available at the drop of a hat 20 hours a day do you?
Where should they be based?
what sort of coverage do you want at each location?
How much do you think that lot will cost compared to the net benefit?
So you think a bus company should cancel some of their registered services (getting into trouble with their regular passengers and the Traffic Commissioner) so they can run Rail replacement buses do you?
You think?
Not always the case.
So you think the costs of having enormous fleets of buses and drivers stationed throughout the TOCs network 'just in case' will be covered by the current taxi/Hotel bill do you?
That is naive in the extreme, it would probably cost at least 100 times as much for next to no gain!
Yes the last couple of days have been extreme (as was the beginning of the month) but for a total of 4 days a year you want to employ staff and purchase enough buses which will sit in depots (which will also have to be paid for) for at least 11 months a year doing nothing.
I think that covers it politely!
Maybe the airlines should have a spare fleet of buses and ferries to use when the airspace is closed or the wind prevents the aircraft taking off/ landing?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
To close this, the Railways don't do what is impossible to do but mostly do what is possible.
christopher
Member
Why don't we just rebuild all railway lines to be on elevated viaducts so flooding doesn't affect them or fallen trees?
Captain Chaos
Member
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- 31 Jan 2011
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- 840
Not really. Take FGW as an example. In order to have a fleet of buses ready to go anytime we would require to set-up several depots with several buses, with more drivers (to cover all hours) to sit there for most of the year doing exactly nothing.
You would probably need bus depots at:
Paddington
Slough
Reading
Oxford
Worcester
Gloucester
Bristol
Cardiff
Westbury
Portsmouth
Taunton
Exeter
Plymouth
St Austell
Penzance
I might have missed some possibilities from the list. Some may not be needed. But it gives you an idea I am sure as to how many buses and drivers, not to mention maintenance and depot space would be required to make your idea a reality. It is a ridiculous and stupid idea. It is so stupidly uneconomical to have an entire bus network sitting idle for the best part of a year that I'm not even going to try and produce numbers. It should be obvious to anyone the amount of money that would be thrown away on it all. The current system isn't perfect, but it's the best of a bad situation. What needs to happen is for assistance to be quicker. Not on-call with vast fleets of buses and drivers at huge expense.
This has nothing to do with the railway having a "no-can-do attitude". It's because it's a daft idea.
At no point did I suggest that TOCs should own buses, have their own depots or have "enormous fleets on standby" . I made a simple suggestion that, if there is a shortage of replacement buses, perhaps there are possible bus providers out there that they haven't considered using, and that maybe they need to have firmer contracts with these providers.
I'm basically saying that TOCs should keep doing what they are doing (get replacement buses from third parties) but that, with increase reliance on rail, and increasingly extreme weather, they just need to scale up their rail replacement plans and think outside the box a bit. What's so daft about that??
I'm basically saying that TOCs should keep doing what they are doing (get replacement buses from third parties) but that, with increase reliance on rail, and increasingly extreme weather, they just need to scale up their rail replacement plans and think outside the box a bit. What's so daft about that??
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Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
The point is, the bus companies themselves do not have a vast number of spare vehicles and drivers available in the first place.
You cannot source something that does not exist.
You cannot source something that does not exist.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
There is a thread on this board - "Weird Logic". I wonder if the suggestions by RYS should be moved to that heading.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
I can just imagine the number of staff who would be queuing around the block to get some extra work on Christmas Eve driving a long distance route, not knowing when or if they will be able to get back for Christmas Day.
Even if you had the buses, you'd have no chance of staffing them, and from what I understand staffing was a major problem, because of the day they were needed on, those who could supply buses, had problems getting staff who would be happy to work such work on their days off for the above reasons.
Even if you had the buses, you'd have no chance of staffing them, and from what I understand staffing was a major problem, because of the day they were needed on, those who could supply buses, had problems getting staff who would be happy to work such work on their days off for the above reasons.
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trainophile
Established Member
How about every station should have a Travelodge built right next to it, and reserved solely for the use of stranded rail passengers.
Sorry; Christmas or no, your suggestion is not remotely possible, you are either trolling for the sake of it or a complete idiot who knows nothing about the bus/coach industry and it's regulatory framework or come to that operating the railway.
Unlike many posters I have been on both sides of emergency RRB operations, having had to arrange and manage provision of such matters at an ECML station for both Signaller disputes and OHL down situations, AND also having run my own bus/coach operation. You do the best you can at the time - end of.
Do you not think your thoughts have ever been expressed before? Of course they have. After one such OHL disruption I had head office at York asking me to explore arrangements for a call off contract with the local quality coach operators, doing as I was asked lead to the pretty much universal response that the only way that would be possible would be for the railway to enter into a 3-5 year contract to have X number of coaches and X number of drivers on permanent standby at an enormous cost. It didn't happen.
Putting on my bus/coach operators hat for a mo, if I was an operator in the areas affected over the last few days, unless I was contractually obliged, I would have refused any request to subject my staff or vehicles to the prevailing conditions. Do you not think that many of todays bus/coach operators might have thought the same?
LBSCR Times
Member
When you have worked in the bus and coach industry then you'll know the restrictions on operations.
Until then I suggest you move to the real world.......
I don't think the way the arrangements work at the present time throughout the country there are many suitably qualified PCV bus /coach drivers available at an hour two's notice to operate large numbers of replacement busses ,as far as I know there are no budgets in the rail industry to pay a large number of drivers to sit at work or home on call ,that's the financial reality
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LBSCR Times
Member
More like moved to a posting for Trolling.....
This exactly. First Bus in my local struggle to find vehicles/drivers to cover their standard day-to-day operations, let alone finding additional resources to lay on rail replacement bus services. It's also worth pointing out that First Bus in Bristol were already pretty stretched as it was as they ran a normal weekday service this Christmas Eve.
Although in some cases the third party has a common owner!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Because if you read my post earlier in the thread you'd have found out that one bus operator had its buses sitting in the depots because the routes they were due to serve were blocked. One bus went out and took 2 hours to do 2 miles!
Whilst buses as road vehicles can use alternative routes its not as easy as that. For a start they can't do a three point turn when they find a road blocked, so they have to find somewhere suitable to reverse in to, and of course reverse to get there. They also have to be careful on alternative routes to ensure they stick to weight, height and width limits.
The reality is that rail companies do use buses for timetabled rail replacement services because these are usually at night and/or weekends when there are buses available. They use coaches for emergency cover because they are likely to be required when buses aren't available.
My understanding is that many coach companies with rail contracts do have a list of part time drivers who they can call in to drive coaches for the rail company. The issue of course being whether they actually have any coaches available.
It is plainly absurd to assume that in conditions like those on the 22nd and 23rd that rail companies can magic alternative transport out of the air.
Andrewlong
Member
I think posters like RYS mean well but do not understand the logistics of organising replacement bus services as has been eloquently described on this forum. I have suffered delays waiting for replacement bus services and understand the frustration.
Perhaps the rail industry needs to do more PR to get message across to public. I feel sorry for those TOC staff responding to abusive tweets from members of the public who should know better.
Perhaps the rail industry needs to do more PR to get message across to public. I feel sorry for those TOC staff responding to abusive tweets from members of the public who should know better.
Some people aren't capable of being educated. They are genuinely challenged in the Brain department and can't see beyond their own noses. They are like little kids who just keeping saying "But Why......".
No point wasting resources on anymore PR. Any reasonable person would look around and appreciate the challenges faced in poor weather etc.
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Thank you Andrew, after reading the one or two constructive replies I've had, I've decided perhaps you're right. People have gotten so worked up over my suggestions, the only reasonable conclusion is that it must be more complicated than I realise. Either that or I'm a trolling, uneducated idiot...
Well at least 'to close this' makes a change from 'end of' which is the common sign off when someone makes a statement which is open to challenge but which, as far as they are concerned, is indisputable and hence not open to discussion.
Many, many threads on here have highlighted occasions when 'the railways' have not done what is possible. There are often very good reasons why what is possible is not done, but that does not mean it is 'impossible'.
As the saying goes "The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."
Out of interest, how many buses or coaches would be needed to 'replace' just one Intercity train, complete with bags etc? And how many to replace multiple trains unable to go?
And how many drivers would that then require, even if you found said buses or coaches.
I'm no logistics expert, but I suspect that you'd need a fair few and probably more than most depos outside a major city could ever hope to provide - and that's assuming they could suddenly stop operating for their intended purpose.
And how many drivers would that then require, even if you found said buses or coaches.
I'm no logistics expert, but I suspect that you'd need a fair few and probably more than most depos outside a major city could ever hope to provide - and that's assuming they could suddenly stop operating for their intended purpose.
John @ home
Established Member
- Joined
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- 5,148
Not quite every station.1X01 has called at all stations on time
Santa appears to have been operating from an out-of-date list of stations. I hope the local children will not have been too disappointed by the failure to serve Energlyn & Churchill Park (ECP).
Hellfire
Member
- Joined
- 14 Dec 2012
- Messages
- 573
This may not be very popular with some on this thread but I feel passengers have some responsibility as well
The fact is that we knew for some days beforehand that the weather in the 48 hours prior to Christmas was going to be bad. It doesn't take a detailed knowledge of railway operation to imagine there might be an effect on services. Add to that the fact that everyone seems to want to travel at the last minute and the potential for chaos is high
I understand people want to be somewhere for Christmas. But I think there are far too many who just assume the railway will get them where they want to be whatever the circumstances. That's just not living in the real world.
The same thing applied to flights, particularly at Gatwick. One woman interviewed on TV had booked a flight to Mexico on a charter airline leaving on Christmas Eve. Those factors alone have the potential for delays without throwing in the weather.
Sometimes we expect too much of our various transport systems many of which are running at capacity at the best of times. According to some scientists these extremes of weather will become more common. Well just have to alter our expectations of being able to travel smoothly at all times.
The fact is that we knew for some days beforehand that the weather in the 48 hours prior to Christmas was going to be bad. It doesn't take a detailed knowledge of railway operation to imagine there might be an effect on services. Add to that the fact that everyone seems to want to travel at the last minute and the potential for chaos is high
I understand people want to be somewhere for Christmas. But I think there are far too many who just assume the railway will get them where they want to be whatever the circumstances. That's just not living in the real world.
The same thing applied to flights, particularly at Gatwick. One woman interviewed on TV had booked a flight to Mexico on a charter airline leaving on Christmas Eve. Those factors alone have the potential for delays without throwing in the weather.
Sometimes we expect too much of our various transport systems many of which are running at capacity at the best of times. According to some scientists these extremes of weather will become more common. Well just have to alter our expectations of being able to travel smoothly at all times.
dave55uk
Member
Very well said 'Hellfire'.
VauxhallandI
Established Member
And that they knew where they were going!
(Happy one year anniversary on RailUK to me!!!)
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