Weather related disruption - Christmas 2013 and New Year 2014

[ushawk]

Sadly people die on the roads every day of the year.
That does not stop us all going about our normal business.
The cancellation of trains is more about compensation culture and the after effects of a shambolic privatisation process! i.e Too few staff, shortage of compatible rolling stock, lack of diesel powered trains.

Yes, its about compensation culture rather than preventing a packed train hitting a tree on the line at 100mph :roll:

If you are unable to see why they have done this, then words fail me with you - trying to work out if your actually being serious or are just trolling......

 

[6Z09]

Yes, its about compensation culture rather than preventing a packed train hitting a tree on the line at 100mph :roll:

If you are unable to see why they have done this, then words fail me with you - trying to work out if your actually being serious or are just trolling......

How many times has a train hit a tree at 100mph??
What are the number of deaths for such incidents over the past 100 years
The point is that in the past there was amble availability of stock to run proving trains prior to first public trains, there were plenty infrastructure staff to respond to blockages, trains ran, but at reduced speed!!
It is only in the past couple of years that this policy has been introduced!
And in fact the complete shutdown of the Scottish network a couple of weeks ago never happened before to my knowledge! Many bewildered passengers affected on that day could not recall such an event either!
Not a troll just a baffled former railworker of many years experience.

 

[Goatboy]

Yes, its about compensation culture rather than preventing a packed train hitting a tree on the line at 100mph :roll:

It pretty much is, and appeal to emotion fallacies don't help your case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

This is an entirely new way of handling these problems - it's only in 2013 has this cause of action become the most common during adverse weather. We get bad weather in the UK frequently but only this year has the pre-emptive shutdown of parts of the rail network become the go-to point for what to do.

 

[PHILIPE]

Not weather related but possible problems on Marches Line. Bridge bash just south of Hereford and initial reports say damage extensive. Seems to be "hit and run" as stated lorry drove off. Bustitution between Hereford and Abergavenny. ATW Website says working on a Plan and info when available.

A little over-exaggerated. Trains now running through but with slight delay. ATW planning normal service Monday, also FGW.

 

[fsmr]

How many times has a train hit a tree at 100mph??
What are the number of deaths for such incidents over the past 100 years
The point is that in the past there was amble availability of stock to run proving trains prior to first public trains, there were plenty infrastructure staff to respond to blockages, trains ran, but at reduced speed!!
It is only in the past couple of years that this policy has been introduced!
And in fact the complete shutdown of the Scottish network a couple of weeks ago never happened before to my knowledge! Many bewildered passengers affected on that day could not recall such an event either!
Not a troll just a baffled former railworker of many years experience.

Its not just railways, many roads now get closures imposed as soon as any flooding occurs or heavy snow to prevent foreseeable accidents or potential rescues being required. Closing the network is a sensible precaution until things have quietened down. and the risk of considerable damage being caused to the OLE by moving trains has abated not to mention trees trampolines and anything else ending up on the track

Unfortunately some of the disruption is also one of the trade offs with pushing for OLE everywhere. It makes the network less robust in times of heavy wind or ice but so ,long as the punters recognise that then so be it.

 

[Tracky]

Quite a few trains have hit trees and other obstructions in recent years years... No deaths as far as I am aware but some close calls and it is the drivers who are most at risk. Modern trains are solidly built but most of the cabs are quite flimsy. The FGW HST is an obvious example where the driver was very lucky.

Also the disruption, taking a train out of service and costly repairs makes not running the train or running at reduced speed a much better option.

The railway is not what it was. It is not very flexible with fixed units, basic track layouts and few diversionary routes. An example of this is todays Bridge strike near Hereford. Very poor location! That said, we have to make the best of it!

 

[ushawk]

It pretty much is, and appeal to emotion fallacies don't help your case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

This is an entirely new way of handling these problems - it's only in 2013 has this cause of action become the most common during adverse weather. We get bad weather in the UK frequently but only this year has the premptive shutdown of parts of the rail network become the go-to point for what to do.

Not sure how they "dont help my case" when it very much is the truth. In these winds trees will come down - thats a given. The railway needs to prepare for this and to limit damage to the infastructure. This is also one of the downfalls with OHLE, in strong winds it can come down easily, even easier when you have a train using the OHLE power going at full line speed.

The recent weather has been getting more severe in recent years and in past extreme weather, a high amount of damage has occurred. The plans put in place limit this and trains WILL still be running tomorrow, but sensibly at reduced speed.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Not a troll just a baffled former railworker of many years experience.

Yes, former railworker.....
Nowadays the passenger is less tolerant of anything and everything,
and expect instant results.
This applies to plenty of other industries too.

 

[Chrisgr31]

If only the train operating companies well in my experience Southern in particular, where capable of actually telling the passengers what they were up to it would be a bonus.

I think a blanket suspension of service in the morning does work and at least the passengers then know they need to make alternative arrangements. However last time they werent very good at telling passengers when the trains started running on each line.

 

[Goatboy]

Not sure how they "dont help my case" when it very much is the truth. In these winds trees will come down - thats a given. The railway needs to prepare for this and to limit damage to the infastructure.

But they didn't need to do this in 2012? Or 2011? Or 2010? etc?

They've changed the way they handle it - nobody has been killed so it wasn't because of that. I suspect the delay minute theory etc is closer to the truth.

We don't live in a different world weather wise to the one we lived in 2 years ago.

 

[ushawk]

But they didn't need to do this in 2012? Or 2011? Or 2010? etc?

They've changed the way they handle it - nobody has been killed so it wasn't because of that. I suspect the delay minute theory etc is closer to the truth.

We don't live in a different world weather wise to the one we lived in 2 years ago.

It has nothing to do with that. Its more damage limitation. 1 day of disruption is better than a whole week.

And if the weather is no different, then please explain 2 severe storms with damaging winds within 2 months both affecting most of the country. It was a long while before that until we had the same conditions as we are/have experienced.

Passenger attitude has changed too, they are less likely to accept disruption so you need to limit it. Remember, there is no blanket suspension.

 

[Llanigraham]

Not a troll just a baffled former railworker of many years experience.

The railway now is a very different place to what it was.
I suggest you stop living in history and realise that the world has moved on (a long way)

 

[Bald Rick]

But they didn't need to do this in 2012? Or 2011? Or 2010? etc?

They've changed the way they handle it - nobody has been killed so it wasn't because of that. I suspect the delay minute theory etc is closer to the truth.

We don't live in a different world weather wise to the one we lived in 2 years ago.

We haven't had storms like those this year since 2002, certainly not in the south.

The response has not changed. Above a certain wind speed, speed restrictions are imposed, both to reduce the probability of trains colliding with trees / debris, and then reduce the consequences if it does happen. Speed restrictions mean lower effective capacity, so some trains have to be cancelled, particularly in the peak. If the storm comes overnight then route proving trains are run, and this must be in daylight. This is what is happening this time. Being Dec 23/4 it is just about the latest sunrise of the year. Hence the late start up.

Meanwhile several hundred folk up and down the country will be ready for the call to go out in 80mph winds and torrential rain to rescue any trains and their passengers that do meet with difficulty. Hats off.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Passenger attitude has changed too, they are less likely to accept disruption so you need to limit it. Remember, there is no blanket suspension.

Too true, if nothing was done then MP's etc would complain that the industry had plenty of time to react and failed to do so etc...
If you look at Twitter, there are always numerous complaints along these lines, and why doesn't the rail industry have contingencies in place.

Perhaps if it was still British Rail then the 'take it or leave it' attitude could still apply, as it would be a nationalised monopoly.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We haven't had storms like those this year since 2002, certainly not in the south.

The response has not changed.

Yes, and in 2002 there was a requirement to stop all trains at 9am, on a weekday, due to debris being blown on the line.
The South London Metro didn't quite stop but some minor routes were suspended for a while.
When the lines re-opened there was a blanket speed of 40mph on the South Central routes.

 

[edwin_m]

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of stopping the service, I'd say it's good that the industry has obtained widespread publicity for the warning of disruption including the statement that ticket restrictions have been waived. At least people who choose to change their arrangements or not to travel at all have the best opportunity to do so.

 

[ushawk]

Too true, if nothing was done then MP's etc would complain that the industry had plenty of time to react and failed to do so etc...
If you look at Twitter, there are always numerous complaints along these lines, and why doesn't the rail industry have contingencies in place.

Perhaps if it was still British Rail then the 'take it or leave it' attitude could still apply, as it would be a nationalised monopoly.....

It really is a case of "damned if they do, damned if they dont". Of course it is better to be safe than sorry too. Bare in mind it is also based on Met Office forecasts, and thankfully not the Daily Express and their MadeUpWeatherSolutions "weather expert".

 

[Wivenswold]

I think they've made the right call. Better to plan around such arrangements than carry on regardless and leave people stranded.

Regarding the weather. It should be stressed that the main concern for the Met Office is the heavy rain at the moment. Rivers are full and the torrential rain forecast will cause flooding and landslips. Sustained winds will peak around 40mph which is within the normal range for Autumn storms but gusts (especially around showers) could top 70mph and that could include some inland areas even in the SE.

Unfortunately a lot of people on Greater Anglia's twitter account aren't able to understand that the first priority in these situations is to customers' safety.

Anyway, round two is on Friday evening and that one looks like a monster of a storm system.

 

[al78]

I decided to take the advice and traveled this evening instead of tomorrow evening; got to Manchester just before 10pm. No real problems other than there was no catering on the train I got from Euston. What happened was the catering crew were on a delayed inbound service to Euston and thus weren't there when my train was due to depart. The train departed on time just as the catering crew arrived and were running up the platform, which was most unfortunate, they had missed it by seconds. The train manager managed to source some bottled water for passengers to help themselves and later found some Virgin snack boxes, which were quite basic but did provide some much needed calories (I had been doing a fair bit of cycling earlier in the day and was hungry, and my initial plan to eat at Euston failed).

I was surprised at how quiet the train was; given the advice to travel Sunday instead of Monday I was expecting far more passengers. Maybe people had already traveled earlier in the weekend.

 

[infobleep]

I suspect many people will just travel tomorrow. I mean the rail companies have announced problems from the afternoon onwards, but they haven't released any timetables yet. So some people might be thinking, I'll chance it.

I'm planning on going to work as normal. I may have to leave slightly earlier than usual but that's about it. I've been on a train that hit a tree once. They are built to withstand hitting such things as far as I am aware. The driver had to saw it as it had become lodged into the side of the train. I certainly felt the impact but it wasn't anything really bad. Perhaps we didn't hit a really bad tree.

People talk on here about how the railways have changed. Well how would this current situation have been handled if the railways hadn't changed and we still had lots of diversion lines?

 

[Muzer]

I'm travelling tomorrow - we might travel earlier if possible but I'm not sure it will be.

At what time will the West Coast Main Line TSRs be put in place, or has this not yet been decided? If it's mid-afternoon rather than early-afternoon we'll probably stick with the booked train to be honest. We're booked on the 1300 from Euston, alighting at Macclesfield.

 

[quarella]

Yes, former railworker.....
Nowadays the passenger is less tolerant of anything and everything,
and expect instant results.
This applies to plenty of other industries too.

I agree. Lines blocked, roads blocked and passengers being abusive to station staff and demanding taxis despite all the warnings of "not to travel". Especially when on a day trip with their area of origin having been affected for a number of days with continuing problems forecast.

My personal view is also that Network Rail bean counting has spread the people on the ground too thinly and they are not very proactive waiting for a problem to occur then only dealing with that specific issue. While those on the ground are spread thinly it is amazing how many managers come out of the woodwork to flap around at times of disruption due to wind, rain and snow.

 

[Monty]

Not sure if this will be of any use to anyone, South West Trains are running a near normal service until 1300. Beyond that time trains will be restricted to a maximum speed of 50mph until approximately 0600 the next day. As previously mentioned because of the reduced capacity caused by the speed restrictions some services have had to be cancelled, the main services being affected are the evening peak time extras.

There will also be a shuttle in place between Weymouth and Bournemouth as the Waterloo-Weymouth services will terminate at Bournemouth. Services from Waterloo-Yeovil/Exeter are also being effectively split at Salisbury, with a shuttle service starting from there onwards to Yeovil and Exeter. I imagine the reasoning behind this is to avoid crew displacement in the event of an incident. All subject to change of course if the weather improves or deteriorates further, check before travelling and stay safe out there guys.

 

[bramling]

How many times has a train hit a tree at 100mph??
What are the number of deaths for such incidents over the past 100 years
The point is that in the past there was amble availability of stock to run proving trains prior to first public trains, there were plenty infrastructure staff to respond to blockages, trains ran, but at reduced speed!!
It is only in the past couple of years that this policy has been introduced!
And in fact the complete shutdown of the Scottish network a couple of weeks ago never happened before to my knowledge! Many bewildered passengers affected on that day could not recall such an event either!
Not a troll just a baffled former railworker of many years experience.

I remember in the October 2000 storms a Piccadilly Line train hit a tree near Osterley, and the cab was not a pretty sight afterwards, the Train Operator had to be cut free and suffered serious injuries.

I can see two sides of the argument. Yes the natural instinct is and should be to run, however if the network is going to be chaos anyway then maybe it is better to announce in advance and close up, and at least resume to normal straight away afterwards. The industry is damned either way, as if you try to run and deliver a chaotic service the passengers will moan anyway, and if you then end up damaging a few trains you may get cancellations or short-forms for weeks or months afterwards which in the long run is a worse result. Worse still if you end up with a derailment or an injured driver or passengers.

Run what is safe, but don't take risks!

 

[HowardGWR]

FGW can't spell apparently, perhaps due to the panic over the weather . Sometimes postings on here unfortunately contain schoolboy howlers but one does not expect such from a publicity worker of a TOC.

This, just seen on twitter:
'Passengers with tickets to travel after 1200 may use there tickets on an earlier service, but are warned to expect it to be busy.'

 

[DJL]

Sorry jumping in late on this thread.

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of stopping the service, I'd say it's good that the industry has obtained widespread publicity for the warning of disruption including the statement that ticket restrictions have been waived. At least people who choose to change their arrangements or not to travel at all have the best opportunity to do so.

I agree 100% - publicity is key here.
Personally I'm going to take a chance today by going to the office but - knowing in advance that the TOCs are expecting trouble I intend to keep a close eye on things.
At the first sign of trouble I'm high tailing it out of there and rather than head to my usual station (16 min walk - by which time it could be too late) I'll go to the nearest and grab the first train going vaguely in my direction. Hopefully it will get far enough that I can at least walk home. I'm also taking supplies - you know - just in case.

Without the publicity I would have been sat at my desk until normal home time completely oblivious to any issues the trains might be having and might end up with a 15-20 mile angry walk home!

I would much rather the relevant companies were upfront and I'd rather a train was cancelled at source than get stuck part way, in the middle of nowhere, with no electric and therefore no heating, no/limited food and water and no light.

And probably no mobile signal either

 

[Flamingo]

FGW can't spell apparently, perhaps due to the panic over the weather . Sometimes postings on here unfortunately contain schoolboy howlers but one does not expect such from a publicity worker of a TOC.

This, just seen on twitter:
'Passengers with tickets to travel after 1200 may use there tickets on an earlier service, but are warned to expect it to be busy.'

Well, I nominate this post for being the most nit-picking of the year (and that's saying something). Talk about missing the point...:roll:

 

[43167]

All calm in Skipton at present. Think its later when it gets bad.

 

[infobleep]

Train companies may have been advertising the impending disruption online but I heard no station announcements at Guildford when I passed through it 3 times last night.

The first one I heard was this morning. Not everyone will have watched the news or gone online. Surely it would have made sense to advertise in advance at stations too.

I see this morning South West Trains have decided to cancel further services for tonight. Not suprised. Clearly the forecast is just the same or worse than previously predicted. If that isn't a sign then I don't know what is.

SWT predict problems from 1pm and Southern from 4pm. The weather doesn't care about train company timings. I intend to eave the office around 4pm as I chance that earlier services will be slow but less affected. I suspect the first SWT problems will be to the west more. I will use their West based services as a guide.

As for FGW, there problems have already started. Poor rail conditions on the Gatwick to Reading line. I suspect next year they will have to target that line more because this year it seems to be affected with poor rail conditions far more than than the SWT lines through Guildford.

Of course once they do that the problem will just occur somewhere else instead to annoy them and everyone else. Such is the weather.

What happens tomorrow if service start to run later and people miss their conditions and can't get home due to the early close down? Are train companies liable given that by that time the conditions are safe to provide services and probably road replacement services too?

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk

 

[Monty]

Waterloo is unusually quiet for a Monday morning, hardly had to queue for tea at your friendly neighbourhood tax dodging coffee shop. I don't know if that's because it's the day before Christmas Eve and people in the city are taking a longer break over the Christmas period or they are trying to avoid the worst of the weather and work from home. Could be a bit if both I guess..


Edit: I do say, some chap has just say down next to me wearing a zebra costume! How random...

 

[DJL]

Waterloo is unusually quiet for a Monday morning, hardly had to queue for tea at your friendly neighbourhood tax dodging coffee shop. I don't know if that's because it's the day before Christmas Eve and people in the city are taking a longer break over the Christmas period or they are trying to avoid the worst of the weather and work from home. Could be a bit if both I guess..


Edit: I do say, some chap has just say down next to me wearing a zebra costume! How random...

I noticed that I managed to get a seat on the fast train this morning - something which is usually unheard of.
I think a lot of people finished work on Friday.

As for tomorrow, judging by what happened in the last big storm it wouldn't surprise me if one or more TOCs don't run a single train to its published schedule.
Late start coupled with everything out of position coupled with early finish could make for some frantic re-diagramming all day!