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Do ticket names make sense?

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hairyhandedfool

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Why do we need "Day" tickets anyway?....

Speaking for those who buy Day Returns where 'Open' Returns are available...."Day Returns are cheaper....". Look at it from a flexibility point of view. 'Open' returns are more flexible than day returns, which are more flexible than 'advance purchase' tickets. The price drops as flexibility decreases.

As for for names, well, I'll put it to you like this, when we had 'Cheap Day returns' the question was always "when is it cheap day?". They got rid of 'Cheap Day' for 'Off-Peak Day' and now the question is "when is it off-peak?". Until some genius invents a flawless way of restricting 'off-peak' tickets that is consistent across the board (never gonna happen) the names are largely irrelevant, unless they are sufficiently different for all four (six) types of return.

As I mentioned in another thread, if I get asked for an 'open' ticket I ask how open (one day or one month?) and get a puzzled expression back followed by a varying answer given in a way that suggests it is obvious. When people ask for 'a return valid for one month' I ask a similar question (coming back within one month or coming and going everyday for a month) and I get exactly the same expression with an equally varying answer given in an equally 'obvious' way.
 
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30907

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This is my suggestion:

SVR - Saver Month Return (SAVER MONTH RET)
SSR - Restricted Saver Month Return (RESTR SVR MTH RT)

CBA - Weekend Day Return (WEEKEND DAY RET)

Advantages of this naming system:
- "Saver" makes passengers ask whether ticket is off-peak, which is the right question to ask, and implies that the ticket is more flexible than "off-peak".
- "Weekend" makes validity of CBA tickets very clear.

SVR/SSR - "Restricted" rather implies that SVR is "unrestricted" which is no longer the case on many routes. I don't see how calling a ticket "Saver" makes passengers ask whether it is off-peak.

CBA - excuse my ignorance, but what are these currently called? Wikipedia (only source I can easily find) says "Evening and Weekend..."
 

Oscar

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"Saver" is not clearly "Anytime" or "Off-Peak" so it does not lead passengers to assume the ticket is definitely restricted or not. Perhaps "super" is better than "restricted".

CBA tickets are currently called Super Off-Peak Day Returns (the same name as SOB tickets).
 
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tsr

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With the upcoming advent of more detailed info printed on tickets, I believe it is now time to do away with these short and often-misleading names being shown to the customer as what you might call a primary source of information - online and at TVMs. If they know the name (or whatever a revised version might be), then that's OK, but there should be no need to present the name until the product is selected by process of elimination. There are some flows where this is not entirely possible, but generally the passenger wants a ticket covering them on a journey from A-B, and "ticket" does not equate in their mind to a "Super Off-Peak Day Single" or something!

For example, at a TVM, you often get presented with a long list or large grid of these ticket names immediately after selecting your destination. Instead, it would be much easier for the customer to be presented with a screen which offers them a choice of: "Single" / "Return", then, for either leg of the journey, an option to touch the date on a calendar which they need (as well as "Today" / "Tomorrow", as is usually provided nowadays on TVMs, after a set time of day) and be given the option to select the earliest & latest departure times possibly needed. Further features could include a function perhaps clearly called "Break my journey en-route", where the passenger can say how long they wish to spend at any given "via" point (with an identical date/time selection system), and also the fare shown in a universal place on screen, which can change dynamically with selected options. But why oh why do they need to even be shown or told about the three-to-five word summary name at the first or second "screen" in the sequence, which is very often only fully understood by TOC staff trained in ticketing/revenue?

Unfortunately, this information is usually just summarised at the time of payment, requiring long-winded backtracking through the system if it's wrong. And often the restrictions are then partially displayed twice, or off the edge of the screen, or in tiny text. Unless this inability for a customer to go through a more logical sequence of date/time options and be given a ticket with any correct restriction is remedied, which it could be, I don't blame passengers making unfamiliar journeys for not wanting to use the machines. The same does go for online booking, but people are usually not in quite as much of a hurry about that, and at least they are fairly happy that they are able to scroll through things on a reasonably familiar device.

From personal experience, many passengers in my local area know the difference between a "single" and "return", and have an idea that there is something along the lines of a "normal ticket" and a "Travelcard". Usually, they'll be aware that off-peak fares are cheaper, but not if they're valid, especially in which directions or the times when they may arrive (that can be really confusing for people!). (As for Railcard vs off-peak restrictions, don't get me started on the comments I've heard on that one, but that's irrelevant here.)

My overall point is that three-to-five words cannot cover the enormous ambiguities in our fares system. Usually, all you need is to be able to gather the info from the customer, and print a ticket which covers them at the times they've selected. Asking them to pick and choose fares from a list is daunting and can just result in random guessing.
 
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Oscar

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I agree that offering choices on a TVM would be a better way to make our complex fare system more accessible to passengers.
 

jon0844

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TVM software is an embarrassment. Designed by people that have clearly done little to no user testing.

Imagine a smartphone having an interface like a TVM. Well, if you look back to Windows CE and Windows Mobile, you actually did have a horrid interface that was hated then, and still hated today by those forced to use it for work.
 

tsr

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Quite. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that the names are only confusing if they are shown, and as that's only usually on tickets, receipts, TVM screens and online booking confirmations, it might really be better to change those systems rather than the names themselves. After all, if you eliminated contact with the naming system unless it was specifically asked for by the customer, you'd remove some confusion. Now, of course, as this is being planned for ticket printing in the fairly near future, that mainly leaves us with TVMs and online booking to consider. TVM use and online booking have a few things in common, and indeed the processes could be unified at least in terms of similar interfaces. As part of this, whether or not you need to have these names, and how confusing they are, needs to be dealt with.
 

andrewkeith5

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People choosing to travel back on a different day are being charged for the flexibility they require. Economics.

Except if you live south of London, in which case you're apparently not allowed to travel back on a different day as the majority of the tickets simply aren't available as 'proper' Off Peak Returns - you can only buy Day Singles (seriously, what's the point in that?), Day Returns or Day Travelcards...
 

30907

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Except if you live south of London, in which case you're apparently not allowed to travel back on a different day as the majority of the tickets simply aren't available as 'proper' Off Peak Returns

It's not "South of London" issue as such: there are plenty of "normal" returns for longer distances such as London to the coast.

The restriction to one day only originally (from WW2) applied within the "London Passenger Transport Area" (a big loop round London starting Gravesend-Tunbridge Wells-Horsham-Guildford and onward) and affected all tickets wholely within it. As "ordinary" (now Anytime) returns were always the same as two singles, it made little difference.

It now applies in various other areas of the country, either in whole or in part - round here, all single fares set by Northern are Day Singles but "normal" returns exist.

Day Singles (seriously, what's the point in that?)
Because an Anytime Single is valid TWO days generally.
 

hairyhandedfool

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"Cheaper Off Peak" instead?

Is that not what they are (with added restrictions)

"A bit more Off-Peak than the Off-Peak" would perhaps be more descriptive or, to shorten it a bit, perhaps "Very Off-Peak"
 

londiscape

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What about if TVMs were designed to operate like the old 'expert systems' and had a question and answer interface, whereby up to 3 questions would elicit the most appropriate ticket? At the moment what we have is a system whereby passengers enter their destination and are presented with a mass of ticket options, which they may or may not understand.

How about:
Q1: Enter your destination.
Q2: Do you wish to travel and return today or are you returning at a later date within a month from now? (Two buttons: Today or Later)
Q3: Do you wish to travel before 09.30 (modified to suit off peak restrictions for different TOCs) - two buttons, yes or no

Then you get presented with appropriate ticket options based on responses.

With a button to the side that says something like 'skip the questions, I know what ticket I want' for those who have more knowledge of the systems.

Is this too simplistic? Or would non-regular passengers benefit from something like this?
 

fowler9

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What about if TVMs were designed to operate like the old 'expert systems' and had a question and answer interface, whereby up to 3 questions would elicit the most appropriate ticket? At the moment what we have is a system whereby passengers enter their destination and are presented with a mass of ticket options, which they may or may not understand.

How about:
Q1: Enter your destination.
Q2: Do you wish to travel and return today or are you returning at a later date within a month from now? (Two buttons: Today or Later)
Q3: Do you wish to travel before 09.30 (modified to suit off peak restrictions for different TOCs) - two buttons, yes or no

Then you get presented with appropriate ticket options based on responses.

With a button to the side that says something like 'skip the questions, I know what ticket I want' for those who have more knowledge of the systems.

Is this too simplistic? Or would non-regular passengers benefit from something like this?

I think that is a really good idea, hence it will never happen. :D
 

hairyhandedfool

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....How about:
Q1: Enter your destination.
Q2: Do you wish to travel and return today or are you returning at a later date within a month from now? (Two buttons: Today or Later)
Q3: Do you wish to travel before 09.30 (modified to suit off peak restrictions for different TOCs) - two buttons, yes or no

....

Is this too simplistic? Or would non-regular passengers benefit from something like this?

The problem would be restrictions on tickets with multiple routes through London or even avoiding London.

Example: Brighton-Manchester

Q3. Do you wish to depart LONDON EUSTON before 0430, between 0926 & 1500 (inc.) or at or after 1845, LONDON ST PANCRAS INTERNATIONAL between 1026 & 1515 (inc.) or at or after 1859, LONDON MARYLEBONE before 0630 and between 0900 & 1600, or at or after 1900, LONDON PADDINGTON between 0810 & 1640 or after 1831, KENSINGTON OLYMPIA between 0915 & 1514 (inc.) or at or after 1812, BEDFORD before 0430 or at or after 0901, LUTON/LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY between 0901 & 1629 (inc.) or at or after 1859, MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL before 0430 or at or after 0951, READING between 0835 & 1710 or after 1831, or WATFORD JUNCTION before 0430, between 0938 & 1438 (inclusive) or at or after 1838 on the outward journey and arrive at LONDON EUSTON before 0720 or at or after 1130, LONDON ST PANCRAS INTERNATIONAL at or after 1129, LONDON MARYLEBONE at or after 1130, LONDON PADDINGTON at or after 1010, KENSINGTON OLYMPIA at or after 1100, BEDFORD at or after 0930, LUTON/LUTON AIRPORT PARKWAY at or after 1004, MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL before 0639 or at or after 1048, READING at or after 0940, or WATFORD JUNCTION before 0644 or at or after 1045 on the return journey?

[YES] [NO]

Granted not many are going to buy this ticket from a ticket machine but you can't rule out the possibility.
 
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maniacmartin

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You wouldn't need to ask such a long question if you'd already worked out which London terminal they were going to
 

jon0844

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What about if TVMs were designed to operate like the old 'expert systems' and had a question and answer interface, whereby up to 3 questions would elicit the most appropriate ticket? At the moment what we have is a system whereby passengers enter their destination and are presented with a mass of ticket options, which they may or may not understand.

How about:
Q1: Enter your destination.
Q2: Do you wish to travel and return today or are you returning at a later date within a month from now? (Two buttons: Today or Later)
Q3: Do you wish to travel before 09.30 (modified to suit off peak restrictions for different TOCs) - two buttons, yes or no

Then you get presented with appropriate ticket options based on responses.

With a button to the side that says something like 'skip the questions, I know what ticket I want' for those who have more knowledge of the systems.

Is this too simplistic? Or would non-regular passengers benefit from something like this?

I think a wizard style method of sale would work wonders.

And on the initial 'start' screen you'd have the wizard as the main option - but a more advanced option for regulars that might wish to select one of the presets, or do clever stuff like change the origin station.

I think TVMs are VERY badly set up right now. They're simplistic, but NOT simple.

I know there are variations, including some that try and be clever with a basket and the ability to add more tickets, but even they're not intuitive enough.

I'd go back to square one and start over, taking onboard more modern app/user interface design.
 

bb21

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You wouldn't need to ask such a long question if you'd already worked out which London terminal they were going to

How are you going to do that if the passenger is buying a ticket at Brighton? Do you ask an additional question to ascertain what their intention is? Three questions is already pushing it and an additional question (which might get the pax to think and hesitate) would add to the length of time it takes to complete one transaction significantly and hence queue times. What if they decide to go from a different London terminal? I can almost guarantee that the TOCs will see masses of complaints from such passengers regarding the resultant confusion because they went from Marylebone instead of Euston and somehow they are faced with different restrictions which they have never been advised of.
 

hairyhandedfool

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You wouldn't need to ask such a long question if you'd already worked out which London terminal they were going to

How are you going to do that if the passenger is buying a ticket at Brighton? Do you ask an additional question to ascertain what their intention is? Three questions is already pushing it and an additional question (which might get the pax to think and hesitate) would add to the length of time it takes to complete one transaction significantly and hence queue times. What if they decide to go from a different London terminal? I can almost guarantee that the TOCs will see masses of complaints from such passengers regarding the resultant confusion because they went from Marylebone instead of Euston and somehow they are faced with different restrictions which they have never been advised of.

Either that or you have people believing they can only take the chosen route and potentially end up in a 30 minute queue for a ticket office at another London Terminal to ask if they can use it only to be told there is no such restriction on route (or they don't mention the existing ticket and end up buying a new one) and they have just missed a train (having already missed one by waiting in the queue) and have to wait for the next one (cue complaints about ticket machines not being fit for purpose).
 

jon0844

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There is a problem in that a TVM ascertaining all the facts to issue the right/best ticket will take longer - but will that always be the case?

One would hope that with smartcards being introduced, more people buying online or via an app, or simply using pay as you go (or paying on account etc) will have little need to use the TVMs which will then be for the occasional turn up and go passenger.

Even now, someone can end up on a machine for some time looking at the different ticket types for a destination and being confused their names and restrictions. The only way they'll probably keep the time down is just buying one - right or wrong. Hopefully the most expensive, most flexible, one to prevent future problems as against buying the cheapest with a billion restrictions!

The key is to making the UI simple, and something people will learn. If some occasional travellers are not using the train much, but when they do probably do the same journey, they may remember what they need and be able to use the quicker menu next time.

Imagine if a receipt issued with the sale didn't just have payment details and the like, but a unique reference code for the actual ticket sold (and perhaps the details printed on it). How about a QR code that you can show to the TVM and it auto selects that same ticket (obviously not necessarily at the same price)?

Loads of possible ideas to make things easier and more intuitive, and hopefully help get queues down in the long run.

Queues are usually small now because if Hatfield and other stations I use are anything to go by, most people queue up and 2 or 3 TVMs are totally unused. Even in the morning peak, the queue can go out the door and the machines are on, with ticket stock, and accepting coins, cards and notes.

And you only need to listen to hear that the majority of people aren't even asking for complicated tickets!
 
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Mojo

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I often see here that there is confusion between Off-peak and Off-peak day tickets; and to a lesser extent these two categories and Super Off-peak and Super Off-peak day tickets.

For instance, someone makes a posting saying that they want to know when off-peak is, as they hold a ticket from London to Witham. Unfortunately it's difficult to answer this, because they might hold an Off-peak day, Off-peak or Super Off-peak day, and they haven't stated whether they are on the Outward or Return, and whether the portion, or the actual ticket, is London to Witham or Witham to London. Whilst the latter two issues are a bit harder to overcome, I feel that the three types of Off-peak ticket should have unique names so that one cannot be confused with the other.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree that offering choices on a TVM would be a better way to make our complex fare system more accessible to passengers.
I would hope that TVMs are programmed to sell all possible tickets first. For instance a customer going to an EMT or Southeastern TVM at St Pancras on a Saturday wanting a Day Return to Luton will be charged £14, whereas if they went to the FCC TVM they would only pay £9.50.

The 'lottery' of differing fares and discounts (e.g. Groupsave) at TVMs is really a bad thing and needs to be fixed, especially if we are going to be closing booking offices in time.
 

LexyBoy

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On TVMs - The problem with choices is that it's often unclear what the effect on the price and utility of a ticket will be. I think the ability to clearly show what a ticket can be used for is more important than worrying about the exact names, which are generally fine (though the "Day" suffix is confusing).

For example, the other day I purchased a ticket to Hampton Court from a TVM at Reading. The first thing you see after selecting the destination is a choice of route:
  • Any Permitted
  • Not Via London
  • Via Basingstoke
  • Clapham Junction
If I'm looking for the cheapest ticket, what I would choose would depend on the time. At 7, it would be Not Via London. At 9, Via Basingstoke. If I wanted to travel via Virginia Water (the usual route for the Not Via London ticket), I should select Any Permitted if it's 10 but Not Via London at 11. Not to mention the option of Travelcards, which aren't offered.

Now for me, I would like a Mixing Deck style display as I really like the ability to show which trains are valid for a given ticket, or vice versa. However I know many people find it confusing.
 
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