Do ticket names make sense?

[razor89]

As has already been said here, the naming system is a mess.

From the staff side, what we see when viewing a selection of fares (at least with STAR) is the following 3 letter codes:

SOR = Standard Open Return = Anytime Return
SDR = Standard Day Return = Anytime Day Return
SVR = Saver Return = Off Peak Return
CDR = Cheap Day Return = Off Peak Day Return

There are many more which honestly are meaningless unless you know what the ticket is anyway.

So for me, anyone asking for an open return is presumably asking for the Anytime Return ticket. It is however dangerous to presume in this job as it leads to situations like this! What I find strange is why they persist with these codes when they bare little relation to what is printed on the ticket.

 

[fowler9]

I feel sorry for any foreign travellers coming here and trying to navigate our ticketing systems, I know it happens in other countries as well to be fair.

 

[island]

I feel sorry for any foreign travellers coming here and trying to navigate our ticketing systems, I know it happens in other countries as well to be fair.

I imagine it's no less complex for most Brits going to other countries.

 

[fowler9]

I imagine it's no less complex for most Brits going to other countries.

Probably, that's why I said it is the same in some other countries. I make the effort to understand and to learn foreign languages though and have never come unstuck mostly (See later), I have come unstuck in the UK though (And in Paris once, oops)

 

[jon0844]

As has already been said, the naming system is a mess.

From the staff side, what we see when viewing a selection of fares (at least with STAR) is the following 3 letter codes:

SOR = Standard Open Return = Anytime Return
SDR = Standard Day Return = Anytime Day Return
SVR = Saver Return = Off Peak Return
CDR = Cheap Day Return = Off Peak Day Return

There are many more which honestly are meaningless unless you know what the ticket is anyway.

So for me, anyone asking for an open return is presumably asking for the Anytime Return ticket. It is however dangerous to presume in this job as it leads to situations like this! What I find strange is why they persist with these codes when they bare little relation to what is printed on the ticket.

I think ATOC actually made it more confusing.

I'd have come up with the following:

Standard Open Return: Seems rather obvious. It's the totally flexible, all encompassing, ticket that has the most flexibility. Get rid of the word 'Anytime' as it implies it can be used at any time, with no restriction (not even one month).

Standard Day Return: The same flexibility but only usable for one day. Again, ditch Anytime for reason above.

Off-Peak Return

Off-Peak Day Return

The Off-Peak Return has more flexibility, but buying one over the day return doesn't put you in a worse position so for marking a ticket I don't think it needs anything more. It makes clear it's only valid on off-peak services, although the passenger does of course need to know what services they are when it's not immediately obvious.

I also wonder if Advance tickets should have been renamed to make it clearer that they are heavily restricted. To me it doesn't matter so much that they were bought in advance. They almost needed to be referred to as some sort of 'Booked Train Only' ticket. Whether it was bought in advance or was cheaper than a walk-up ticket doesn't matter, but the fact it's restricted most definitely does.

 

[maniacmartin]

I dont like the names 'Standard Open Return' and 'Off-Peak Return'
I prefer 'Peak Month Return' and 'Off-Peak Month Return'

 

[redbutton]

I dont like the names 'Standard Open Return' and 'Off-Peak Return'
I prefer 'Peak Month Return' and 'Off-Peak Month Return'

But the ticket is not only valid during the peak the way that the other ticket is only valid during the off-peak. I think Anytime/Off-Peak are better for that reason.

I'd propose:

Anytime Open (or Month) Return
Anytime Day Return
Off-Peak Open (or Month) Return
Off-Peak Day Return

The open tickets would be out within 5 days, return within 30 days.
The day tickets would be out and return on the day of validity.

How's that for "simplification"?

 

[LexyBoy]

I think that if we're calling both CDRs and SVRs "Off Peak" they should at least have the same restrictions on the tickets. "Off Peak" sounds like a ticket type, which is available in a couple of types, whereas in fact the day and period returns are completely different products.

Given the confusion over Advance tickets I agree that another name would have been better to distinguish the ticket type from any ticket bought in advance.

 

[island]

I dont like the names 'Standard Open Return' and 'Off-Peak Return'
I prefer 'Peak Month Return' and 'Off-Peak Month Return'

Then you end up with people saying "I have a peak return, what if I want to use it off-peak?"

 

[yorkie]

I think that if we're calling both CDRs and SVRs "Off Peak" they should at least have the same restrictions on the tickets. "Off Peak" sounds like a ticket type, which is available in a couple of types, whereas in fact the day and period returns are completely different products.

In some cases, an Off Peak Day ticket is not valid, and the appropriate excess is to Off Peak, or even Super Off Peak. This is not conformant with the promises made on the National Rail website!

As guard told me he would not excess such tickets because it looked daft to issue such an excess.

I'd like to see someone win a challenge in court, on the basis that the terms stated on the National Rail website are binding, but I doubt we'd ever see such a case.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the argument for changing them was 'Anytime' sounds like an unrestricted ticket more than 'Standard' does and 'Saver' doesn't mean anything to people who don't know. However, with 'Off Peak Day Returns' and 'Off Peak Returns' not having the same validity in the peaks on different routes it's confusing to call them both 'Off Peak.'

 

[DeeGee]

Any Train Flexible Return
Any Train Day Return
Off Peak Flexible Return
Off Peak Day Return
Advance Single- booked train only.

 

[sheff1]

Anytime Open (or Month) Return
Anytime Day Return
Off-Peak Open (or Month) Return
Off-Peak Day Return

I vote for this. Then for singles:

Anytime Single
Off-Peak Single
Single - Booked train(s) only.

I would remove reference to Advance on tickets. As has been alluded to elsewhere, 'Advance' tickets and tickets booked 'in advance' are often confused. When the ticket was booked is irrelevant at the time of travel - what you need to know is when you can use it.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Any Train Flexible Return
Any Train Day Return
Off Peak Flexible Return
Off Peak Day Return
Advance Single- booked train only.

Booked Train Single? That way there's the possibility of Booked Train Return, which I imagine would be really quite popular...

Either that or Reserved Train Single/Return

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think flexible implies 'month'.

 

[island]

I don't think there's necessarily a need for "booked train single" in the long run as the new style tickets will print "valid only on ______" on the ticket.

 

[AndyLandy]

So, what are the things that a ticket can be?

Any time of day
Off-peak only
Super-off-peak only
Specific train only

Single
Day return
Month return

So you just string those together:
[Anytime/Off-peak/Super off-peak/Specific train] [Single/Day Return/Month Return]

You don't have to have every variety exist, so "Specific train Day return" tickets don't have to exist, even though the naming convention permits them.

It doesn't solve the problem about what's Super about Super Off-peak (or even what's peak and what isn't) but no amount of clever ticket naming will solve that problem, we just have to accept it.

Booked Train Single? That way there's the possibility of Booked Train Return, which I imagine would be really quite popular...

Those used to exist. It used to be possible to book Virgin Value Advance tickets as returns, once upon a time.

 

[jon0844]

When paper tickets are revised and hopefully can have longer ticket type names, and a description, hopefully some of these problems will go away. Of course, it might still be the case that the wrong ticket is bought/sold in the first place - but at least the passenger might spot the mistake before it's too late.

'Anytime' is still capable of causing confusion. Anytime of day, or anytime of day/week/month/lifetime (depending on how you would interpret such a word). If there's a chance of there being confusion, you should probably use another word.

And how you buy tickets online or at a TVM also need to be changed.

I've for a long time wished for TVMs to be designed by people who create the latest OS/app interfaces. I'd seek to have the ability to have a wizard-style selling approach for people who don't know exactly what they want (or what is offered), an advanced option for regulars (perhaps being able to enter codes to get the exact ticket they regularly buy without) and more information being shown on the screen - in an 'info' box or pop-up notices as required.

I can't imagine all the computers running these interfaces would need upgrading, although a lot of the touchscreens might not be up to the task.

Finally, 'Advance' is - to me - silly. You can get any ticket in advance. An advance ticket is a restricted ticket, so I'd be calling it something that draws this to the attention of the passenger - and also makes it a lot easier for staff who have to deal with people claiming not to have known. It would, for one, also make it harder for people to moan about it afterwards (and for the media to side with them).

 

[AndyLandy]

'Anytime' is still capable of causing confusion. Anytime of day, or anytime of day/week/month/lifetime (depending on how you would interpret such a word). If there's a chance of there being confusion, you should probably use another word.

I think if it's suitably qualified "Anytime Day Single"; "Anytime Month Return" you should be ok.

Alternatively, instead of Anytime/Off-peak, we could have some kind of tiered system, so Tier 1 tickets are valid on any train, Tier 2 only valid off-peak and Tier 3 only valid on super off-peak.

The London Midland simplified timetables explain what I'm getting at:
http://www.londonmidland.com/download/82664.4/p110-timetable-may-2013/

I do like the idea of the timetable specifying what tickets are valid for which services. I'm not sure how scalable it is to other operators, though.

 

[jon0844]

You could have trains that have the front/side screens (of course not all trains currently have these) showing more information - or even being colour coded.

Or you could just hope that once smartcards come in, you could potentially get rid of a lot of these ticket types and just charge people based on the train they actually go on. That might be via validators on the train itself, which could also be used to do things like upgrade to first class and other ideas that I won't mention here for fear of going off topic.

Going back to how TVMs offer tickets. I've just booked two return tickets from Hatfield to London Terminals, going on the 21st Dec (Sat) and back on 28th (also Sat).

Now, the cheapest ticket is in fact buying two super off peak singles, as FCC is doing a special on these until January (and hopefully will extend yet again, after doing so in December). But, you wouldn't know that when trying to look at options on the East Coast website (replace with any other site, I'd imagine).

For one, I actually want Hatfield > London Zone 1 but as there's no special offer on these, they're more expensive. (And, again, the site doesn't show you this fact).

And, even when you select a specific return date, you still get offered (or shown) a load of one day only returns and Travelcards. Now, you might not be able to actually select them, but how does that help prevent someone seeing a ticket and then buying that at a station later? Surely these should be hidden by default?

I don't know how many people might use such a site to look up prices (as against brfares) but I bet there are a few, especially if looking shortly before and not wishing to bother with TOD or risking the post.

Besides thinking of how to rename and repackage the existing plethora of tickets, I often wonder how you'd do things if you started again totally from scratch - especially thinking of things like smartcards as being the favoured method from now on (but still with paper/e-tickets as a fallback option).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In some cases, an Off Peak Day ticket is not valid, and the appropriate excess is to Off Peak, or even Super Off Peak. This is not conformant with the promises made on the National Rail website!

Why do we need "Day" tickets anyway?
If the key thing is the time of travel, peak or off-peak, why should it matter whether you come back today or not?
More particularly, if I come back at 1400 today, why should it cost less than if I come back at 1400 tomorrow (or any other day)?

 

[jon0844]

Why do we need "Day" tickets anyway?
If the key thing is the time of travel, peak or off-peak, why should it matter whether you come back today or not?
More particularly, if I come back at 1400 today, why should it cost less than if I come back at 1400 tomorrow (or any other day)?

That's a very good point.

If there's a perceived extra 'risk' (in the form of a possible way to fare evade) you would simply make sure that a return ticket had to be validated in some way - perhaps like a carnet with the date written on before travel, or validated through a gateline (or via tapping on a reader if a smartcard).

That would certainly make things a lot easier.

Or else just offer singles and ditch returns completely (and people just buy another single on whatever day they wish to travel).

 

[maniacmartin]

'Super Off Peak' is a silly name. What does super mean to a non-rail person? Does that mean its better than off peak, as in shoulder peak? However I can't think of a better short name

 

[30907]

The two biggest problems I think are

(1) tickets valid 1 day vs tickets valid 1 month. (BTW the former originated in WW2 in the then LPTB area, and it was definitely for revenue protection, but they are more widespread now in - seemily - a rather random way).

- I wonder whether the word DAY should come first, to make it stand out.
- I am not sure about introducing the word MONTH because that invites confusion with a monthly season (this was an issue for enquiry clerks in the days of the Monthly Return).

(2) the name Advance which, as several posters have pointed out, does not spell out the main feature of the ticket, its being for a Specific Train(s).

"Restricted" is too vague, "Train-specific" a bit jargony, "Specific Train Only" a mouthful. The Germans have Zugbindung but it doesn't translate.
So I am at a loss - especially as the ticket is also Advance Booking Only (as of now.

I did wonder about "Inflexible" (and renaming Off-peak to "Flexible") but I suspect a name with a negative is a no-no (if you see what I mean!).

 

[island]

Why do we need "Day" tickets anyway?
If the key thing is the time of travel, peak or off-peak, why should it matter whether you come back today or not?
More particularly, if I come back at 1400 today, why should it cost less than if I come back at 1400 tomorrow (or any other day)?

People choosing to travel back on a different day are being charged for the flexibility they require. Economics.

 

[sheff1]

People choosing to travel back on a different day are being charged for the flexibility they require. Economics.

But, where an Off Peak Day Return is restricted on the return, it can be cheaper to book an Off Peak Return with a months validity, and travel back the same day, than it is to buy a Anytime Day Return - yes XC I am looking at you ! Economics indeed

 

[David Goddard]

It would be very difficult to come up with a one size fits all structure. The old structure was flawed and so the current set up attempted it but as we have all discussed it has many flaws as well. I would not want to see the demise of returns as these do at least offer some form of assurance to the user, and also a bit of discount as well.
Then of course we have the myriad of vaiations of when is Peak and when of Off Peak (and when is Super Off Peak).

Take peak times for London terminals- granted for the morning Peak there is a bit of consistency- with most TOCS classing Off Peak as generally any train booked in after 10:00, but the afternoon peak varies greatly- some have little restriction at all, some have restriction on all trains between certain times (the periods of which vary by TOC), some on trains to certain destinations only, some only on fast trains (then there is the odd exception), Some TOCS even have OP restrictions on Saturdays. so nothing is clear in this respect as well.

 

[philjo]

I preferred the old name of "saver" as there was less confusion. Now it is called an off-peak return some barrier attendantts get confused with the other off peak tickets and try to stop you going through saying that you can't travel until 9:30 etc when in the southeast the time restriction applies to departure time of the long distance service from London. Therefore you can still travel into London in the morning peak in order to catch a long distance service from a London terminal.

 

[island]

Take peak times for London terminals- granted for the morning Peak there is a bit of consistency- with most TOCS classing Off Peak as generally any train booked in after 10:00

Um... nope.

 

[Oscar]

This is my suggestion:

SOR - Anytime Month Return (ANYTIME MONTH RT - I do appreciate that the 16-character limit will be removed in a new redesign though)
SDR - Anytime Day Return (ANYTIME DAY RET)

SVR - Saver Month Return (SAVER MONTH RET)
SSR - Restricted Saver Month Return (RESTR SVR MTH RT)

CDR - Off-Peak Day Return (OFF-PEAK DAY RET)
SOB - Restricted Off-Peak Day Return (RESTR OFF-PK D R)

CBA - Weekend Day Return (WEEKEND DAY RET)

A similar system would be implemented for returns.

Advantages of this naming system:
- "Saver" makes passengers question whether ticket is off-peak, which is the right question to ask, and implies that the ticket is more flexible than "off-peak".
- All tickets are consistently marked as "Month" or "Day" to avoid confusion on this matter.
- "Restricted" makes passengers aware of the particular restrictiveness of these tickets (could however also be replaced by "super" which suggests a lower price).
- "Weekend" makes validity of CBA tickets very clear.