Midland Main Line, 125 mph from 8 December 2013

[W230]

NR regulation policy is that late running EMT services get preference over on time FCC services, to enable a minimum delay to EMT services departing St.Pancras.

I'm not sure it's set in concrete. Whenever I'm taking a late running Bedford service I still get put in front of the EMT services at Carlton Road. And I always seem get an angry 'pap' on the horn from the delayed EMT driver after I've crossed to the slows at Harpenden and they pass me. FCC seem to delay EMT much more than the other way round!

That and luck I suspect. Some of those "2-hour" trains didn't make it on time according to realtimetrains today. Some only made it thanks to allowances.

Interesting. I'd always thought that sub 2hr was possible to Sheffield even with the existing timetable. This shows it is.

In fact, I'm not sure if so many of those long-distance TSRs are still in force.

Most (if not all) are still in force south of Bedford.

 

[cle]

Anyone got any informed speculation about what the fastest times from Nottingham to St. Pancras will be
a) After all remaining planned pre-electrification improvements but before electrification?
b) After electrification?

My guess for b) would be about 1hr 20mins, does this sound achievable?

The benefits will probably be more on the slower services with electrification, as it's more to do with acceleration and deceleration - hence the more stops, the more savings!

A Cardiff or Bristol train stopping 5-6 times (and using manual doored-HSTs) therefore get much better time savings, which have been reported as 20-25 mins post-wires.

The fast Nottinghams won't have as much to cut down as they already only stop twice or so.

 

[asylumxl]

I'm not sure it's set in concrete. Whenever I'm taking a late running Bedford service I still get put in front of the EMT services at Carlton Road. And I always seem get an angry 'pap' on the horn from the delayed EMT driver after I've crossed to the slows at Harpenden and they pass me. FCC seem to delay EMT much more than the other way round!

From my commute, I get the impression some FCC services are slowed down by EMT, especially the peak fast(ish) services. I regularly take the 18:52 (Brighton-Bedford) train from Blackfriars, which seems to catch up the 19:00 EMT service most days .

Perhaps EMT services should be put on the slow lines at Carlton Road .

 

[Brian Aylott]

I understand that computer calculations have shown that Class 91s with Mark 4s on the MML will generally be slower than Class 222s
That will be a lovely shock for DfT hoping to move them from ECML!
Brian

Anyone got any informed speculation about what the fastest times from Nottingham to St. Pancras will be
a) After all remaining planned pre-electrification improvements but before electrification?
b) After electrification?

My guess for b) would be about 1hr 20mins, does this sound achievable?

 

[W230]

From my commute, I get the impression some FCC services are slowed down by EMT, especially the peak fast(ish) services. I regularly take the 18:52 (Brighton-Bedford) train from Blackfriars, which seems to catch up the 19:00 EMT service most days .

It depends. The 1752 (an hour previous) always seems to end up late as it gets caught up in the mass of movements going via Tulse Hill, arrives in Blackfriars late and gets put behind the 1756 Bedford. The 1752 misses out LUT, LEA, HRL so ends up crawling behind the 1756 which is stopping at those stations making it later. Prior to this service crossing to the slows at Harpenden, it in turn always makes the 1825 EMT Sheffield service late.

As for an hour later though maybe it's then EMT at fault!

 

[louis97]

From my commute, I get the impression some FCC services are slowed down by EMT, especially the peak fast(ish) services. I regularly take the 18:52 (Brighton-Bedford) train from Blackfriars, which seems to catch up the 19:00 EMT service most days .

Shouldn't do unless the 1900 is late - booked no extra time, generally they should be 5 minutes apart when on-time at St Albans, 9 minutes apart by Luton.

What commonly happens is the 1900, tends to get stuck behind the 1855 if the 1836 from Blackfriars is delayed at all, as it calls on the Fast lines at St Albans.

 

[Edvid]

The 1752 misses out LUT, LEA, HRL

It misses LTN (Luton Airport Parkway), not LUT (Luton).

 

[asylumxl]

Shouldn't do unless the 1900 is late - booked no extra time, generally they should be 5 minutes apart when on-time at St Albans, 9 minutes apart by Luton.

What commonly happens is the 1900, tends to get stuck behind the 1855 if the 1836 from Blackfriars is delayed at all, as it calls on the Fast lines at St Albans.

Booked and reality are two different things. The service is a pair of 377/5s and as such has good acceleration and regularly ends up running on yellows just before West Hampstead Thameslink.

The train in question leaves St Pancras at 1902 and is timed to pass West Hampstead at 1908, with the 1900 to Corby running through at 1905. I can't see it being due to any other train .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone have any idea when the TSRs will be removed on the 125mph sections? So far no dice.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Just had a look at the Midland Main line timings from the Summer of 2001 and you can see the improvement. Figures in brackets are the point to point timings for today.

London St Pancras to Leicester - 69 minutes (now 62 mins)
Leicester to Derby - 25 mins (now 23 mins)
Derby to Chesterfield - 25 mins (now 19 mins)
Chesterfield to Sheffield - 17 mins (now 14 mins)

 

[eastwestdivide]

Have you got them in the other direction too? Be useful to see Sheffield-Chesterfield without the end-of-journey padding.
And those 2001 timings would have been HSTs rather than Meridians wouldn't they?
It's a good speed-up though. The crack Master Cutler with a 45 on the front was 2h30 Sheffield-London from the 1978 timetable.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Have you got them in the other direction too? Be useful to see Sheffield-Chesterfield without the end-of-journey padding.
And those 2001 timings would have been HSTs rather than Meridians wouldn't they?
It's a good speed-up though. The crack Master Cutler with a 45 on the front was 2h30 Sheffield-London from the 1978 timetable.

Southbound point to point timings in summer 2001.

Sheffield - Chesterfield - 13 mins (now 12 mins)
Chesterfield - Derby - 22 mins (now 19 mins)
Derby - Leicester - 27 mins (now 22 mins)
Leicester - St Pancras - 71 mins (now 65 mins)

Yes, remember the 45 headed Master Cutler doing the run in 2h30, and that was via the direct Erewash Valley route. From memory, via Derby it was 2h45. So with line upgrades and Meridans, 45 minutes have been shaved off journey times. Better than the journey time reduction achieved on the West Coast Mainline between Manchester and Euston. And the Midland Mainline arrives to wonderfully restored St Pancras !

With further journey time reductions in May 2014 and electrification by 2020, who knows - London to Sheffield in 1h55 ?

 

[bengolding]

Due to the ECML problems yesterday, I travelled to Leeds via Sheffield. The 0757 took only 1h01 non-stop to Leicester and a sub-2h arrival at Sheffield.

Come electrification, I can't see why Leicester can't be reached in 55m (considering my Virgin services regularly manage Euston-Coventry in that time with 1 stop at Watford). Who needs HS2!

I wonder how they will sort the curve at Market Harborough? Perhaps building a new station further north or cutting up the existing car park to straighten the line. Are there plans to extend the platform lengths in the short term, given that 3 coaches of a HST don't fit on the platform - very annoying!

 

[43074]

Come electrification, I can't see why Leicester can't be reached in 55m (considering my Virgin services regularly manage Euston-Coventry in that time with 1 stop at Watford). Who needs HS2!

Well, the nine-car Meridians (now the 7 car units) were ordered for London - East Midlands- Leeds services via Nottingham. They were supposed to do Leicester to London non-stop in 57 minutes IIRC. So it's certainly do-able, especially with eased curves at Market Harborough and Wellingborough (the biggest constraints) and with 125mph running.

I wonder how they will sort the curve at Market Harborough? Perhaps building a new station further north or cutting up the existing car park to straighten the line. Are there plans to extend the platform lengths in the short term, given that 3 coaches of a HST don't fit on the platform - very annoying!

There is space at Market Harborough to sort this out - it's not easy obviously as new platforms would need constructing but they could certainly ease the curve there. There is also a siding behind the Up platform at Market Harborough, seldom used which they could build on at the South end of Market Harborough station if necessary, and space between the end of the car park and the running line at the North End - it's certainly possible in the station area.

 

[tbtc]

(I know that the Erewash route isn't being wired in CP5 but) all of this information is making me wonder how fast a 125mph EMU could do Sheffield - Chesterfield - Erewash Valley - Leicester - London (if a diesel can do sub 2h via Derby)?

We'll never be as fast as Doncaster - London, but things are getting closer!

 

[Martin222002]

(I know that the Erewash route isn't being wired in CP5 but) all of this information is making me wonder how fast a 125mph EMU could do Sheffield - Chesterfield - Erewash Valley - Leicester - London (if a diesel can do sub 2h via Derby)?

We'll never be as fast as Doncaster - London, but things are getting closer!

A rough guess would be between 1 hour 50 minutes (based on the new 125mph timings) to 1 hour 45 minutes (post electrification), as it's about a 10 minute journey time saving going via the Erewash than via Derby.

 

[edwin_m]

A rough guess would be between 1 hour 50 minutes (based on the new 125mph timings) to 1 hour 45 minutes (post electrification), as it's about a 10 minute journey time saving going via the Erewash than via Derby.

You could probably get more saving if speeds on the Erewash were upgraded. They have remained fairly static for many years, since most of its trains can't exceed 90mph anyway, whereas the Derby route has been upgraded to above 100mph where feasible.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Back of an envelope calculation (using the Hull Trains timings via Erewash/Toton on 27 Dec) says it's not as much as a 10 min saving...:

Hull-London on 27th (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N49640/2013/12/27/advanced)
Chesterfield pass 1217
Trent South pass 1243
Total 26mins
allowances +3
net 23 mins
Although to be fair this appears to use the HL goods lines near Toton, so maybe nearer 20 mins?

Today's 1329 from Sheffield
Chesterfield dep 1341
Trent South 1409
Total 28 mins
minus the 2mins stop at Derby for an equivalent 26 mins
Allowances +1.5
net 24.5 mins?

As ever, if anyone's got a better envelope...

And the other thing is the commercial advantage of serving Derby - could Sheffield and Chesterfield fill a train direct to London without Derby's contribution? And you'd need another service to keep Derby at 2 an hour towards Leicester/London.

 

[HowardGWR]

And the other thing is the commercial advantage of serving Derby - could Sheffield and Chesterfield fill a train direct to London without Derby's contribution? And you'd need another service to keep Derby at 2 an hour towards Leicester/London.

Perhaps I have misunderstood but if that cannot be achieved, then what is HS2 for?

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps I have misunderstood but if that cannot be achieved, then what is HS2 for?

Surely 'Sheffield' (Meadowhall) doesn't need to produce numbers to fill an HS2 train, because instead of being the service origin most of the day it'll just be an intermediate stop in the Leeds or York/Newcastle services...

 

[Martin222002]

Back of an envelope calculation (using the Hull Trains timings via Erewash/Toton on 27 Dec) says it's not as much as a 10 min saving...:

Hull-London on 27th (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N49640/2013/12/27/advanced)
Chesterfield pass 1217
Trent South pass 1243
Total 26mins
allowances +3
net 23 mins
Although to be fair this appears to use the HL goods lines near Toton, so maybe nearer 20 mins?

Today's 1329 from Sheffield
Chesterfield dep 1341
Trent South 1409
Total 28 mins
minus the 2mins stop at Derby for an equivalent 26 mins
Allowances +1.5
net 24.5 mins?

As ever, if anyone's got a better envelope...

And the other thing is the commercial advantage of serving Derby - could Sheffield and Chesterfield fill a train direct to London without Derby's contribution? And you'd need another service to keep Derby at 2 an hour towards Leicester/London.

One thing of note for that particular Hull Trains service you have used for you example is that from Toton Junction it is routed onto the significantly slower high level line joining the MML slow lines are Trent South Junction, thus adding a significant pathing time penalty on top to the allowances you have stated.

The other southbound Hull Trains service (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/N49642/2013/12/27/advanced) running via the MML on the 27th doesn't, and does Chesterfield to Trent South Junction in 22 minutes with 2 minutes of allowances.

 

[eastwestdivide]

That other train at 22 minutes with 2 minutes of allowances giving 20 mins pretty much tallies with what I wrote:

...Although to be fair this appears to use the HL goods lines near Toton, so maybe nearer 20 mins?...

So let's call it a 4-5 minute quicker journey via Erewash/Toton than via Derby?

 

[Martin222002]

That other train at 22 minutes with 2 minutes of allowances giving 20 mins pretty much tallies with what I wrote:


So let's call it a 4-5 minute quicker journey via Erewash/Toton than via Derby?

If you check out the Midland Mainline May 2004 timetable I have attached, you will see that the weekday 07:27 from Sheffield did the journey to London in 2 hours 6 minutes calling only at Chesterfield and via the Erewash Valley operated by a HST. If you then look at the 08:27 from Sheffield, which calls at Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester, and operated by a HST also does the journey to London in 2 hours 16 minutes.

So that gives you the 10 minutes difference, or technically 8 minutes if you factor in the call at Leicester. However this journey time saving is based on HST timings rather than 222 times, which in themselves shaved 10 minutes off the via Derby time for fast services from Sheffield. So it is possible with their superior acceleration 222s could do it at least 10 minutes faster with the Leicester call factored in.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Interesting. Have there been line speed improvements on the Derby route since 2004 as well as the changeover from HST to 222?
Would that account for the difference between your 10 mins and my 5? Or maybe that Hull trains timing is slacker than it could be?

I still reckon we're going down a blind alley, as the diversion of a Sheffield train from the Derby route causes more problems than it solves.

 

[91103eastcoast]

If you check out the Midland Mainline May 2004 timetable I have attached,

Just out of interest, you don't happen to have the timetable for northbound services do you?

 

[The Planner]

Had a quick look at the raw times from Clay Cross North to Trent South in the up direction without stops etc.... 3½ minutes quicker via the Erewash.

 

[Martin222002]

Interesting. Have there been line speed improvements on the Derby route since 2004 as well as the changeover from HST to 222?
Would that account for the difference between your 10 mins and my 5? Or maybe that Hull trains timing is slacker than it could be?

I still reckon we're going down a blind alley, as the diversion of a Sheffield train from the Derby route causes more problems than it solves.

The only line speed improvements between Sheffield - Derby - Trent are those that have been brought in as part of the 125mph line speed upgrades.

Also, I actually agree with you. Personally such a service via the Erewash Valley, particularly if it's Chesterfield - London non-stop, would only be use as a fast peak extra. Though of cause its all a matter of pathing for such a service to work best.

Just out of interest, you don't happen to have the timetable for northbound services do you?

Indeed I have. Please find it attached.

 

[91103eastcoast]

Indeed I have. Please find it attached.

Thank you very much.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Found a copy of the Winter 2002 timetable earlier. I'll scan it later, but at that point the Up Master Cutler (0614 ex-Leeds) was scheduled to take 1 hour 59 minutes from Sheffield to St Pancras, running non-stop from Chesterfield.

In the December 2013 timetable, the same train (now starting short from Sheffield at 0729) takes 2 hours 4 minutes, with stops at Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester.

 

[Martin222002]

Found a copy of the Winter 2002 timetable earlier. I'll scan it later, but at that point the Up Master Cutler (0614 ex-Leeds) was scheduled to take 1 hour 59 minutes from Sheffield to St Pancras, running non-stop from Chesterfield.

In the December 2013 timetable, the same train (now starting short from Sheffield at 0729) takes 2 hours 4 minutes, with stops at Chesterfield, Derby and Leicester.

I knew there had been a period when the 07:27 'Master Cutler' service had been booked to do Sheffield to St Pancras in 1 hour 59 minutes (via the Erewash and Chesterfield to London non-stop) but was just not sure when it was. I think the reason why the services journey time had been increased to 2 hours 6 minutes by May 2004 (I don't know exactly when this change happened) was due to the service suffered poor punctuality.

The 07:29 Sheffield departure (as it is now) is an odd one, as it's one of only a few Sheffield - London / London - Sheffield service which is booked to take over 2 hours (calling at Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield), which are mainly in the peaks. I can't see why it's isn't booked to arrive London earlier, as the only service in front of it is the 07:55 Nottingham - London 'The Robin Hood', which is booked to arrive St Pancras at 09:26, and the 'Master Cutler' is booked to arrive at 09:33, making a 7 minute gap between the two service.

 

[Tomnick]

It has three minutes' pathing allowance in total - one minute approaching Leicester (following 1B18?) and two approaching Carlton Road Jn (seemingly to allow 1W06 to cross to the Down Fast in front of it).