One person missing from the group travel ticket

[tsr]

as a useful reference point my local company (London Midland) have always explained the terms of group save to passengers.

If i buy from the guard on the Marston Vale line he will always explain you must travel together and if i buy form the booking office at Bletchely or MK they always explain you must travel together or the ticket is invalid.

Perhaps that would be sensible best practice for others to follow.

I agree. It's not particularly difficult to explain & should definitely be done without exception.

 

[yorkie]

I've never had this explained to me when purchasing GroupSave tickets.

I've also seen ticket machines that automatically apply GroupSave discounts, without the T&Cs being explained.

I've also known cases where 3 people with 3 Railcards were instead given GroupSave, they travelled on the "Any Permitted" routed ticket on an operator who is listed as a GroupSave operator, and got Penalty Fares. There was a thread about this. Eventually they did get the PF quashed, but nothing will change and it will happen again.

 

[blondedolphin]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, a refund needs to be requested, rather than appealing against something.

I do apologise if the incorrect wording of my post has offended you. As mentioned earlier my brother is dealing with this now and I haven't spoken to him about the process he needs to follow, or what exactly is involved. Request/refund/appeal. I think you all get the general idea I was trying to convey

 

[sarahj]

Whenever I sell a return group ticket on the train its the basic question, statement, you all must travel back together. Everyone goes, yes, we know, of course. But I guess if they break the rules on the return, I bet they go, but no one said anything.

You find the same with super off peaks. When you sell them, or even check them heading into to London, you remind them of the rules for coming back and everyone goes, yes, we know. But find them coming back in peak times, and its, 'well no one told me'.

Perhaps I've become too jaded.

 

[SJN]

Whenever I sell a return group ticket on the train its the basic question, statement, you all must travel back together. Everyone goes, yes, we know, of course. But I guess if they break the rules on the return, I bet they go, but no one said anything.

You find the same with super off peaks. When you sell them, or even check them heading into to London, you remind them of the rules for coming back and everyone goes, yes, we know. But find them coming back in peak times, and its, 'well no one told me'.

Perhaps I've become too jaded.

I agree Sarah and I'm fairly new on the job. People always say they don't know, even when you have explained it to them. I always find super off peaks in the peak am trains and they have never been told of the restrictions even though I have announced four times before we left the station that they are not valid on my train!!

 

[londonbridge]

As some members might know I'm a member of the Sunderland Supporters association London branch. Before Grand Central came along we had a group arrangement with GNER, for Saturday 3pm home games they would reserve us up to forty seats on the 08:00 Kings X-Newcastle and on the 18:35 for the return journey. Our travel officer would take bookings with a deadline of the Tuesday before the match and notify GNER how many tickets we wanted. We then turned up at Kings X and collected our tickets from her. Inevitably one or more members would occasionally miss the outward train. The policy was to board the next one then when the guard came round we would show ID and ask them to phone through to the 08:00 for verification that we were part of the group.

On the way back, by the time you got out of the ground and on the metro the 18:35 was the first train you could get, however there was one at 17:27 which you could occasionally catch if it was delayed into Central Station (or by leaving the game early) so on the return whilst the majority would be on the 18:35 there would be a few on the 17:27-the fact the group weren't together was never questioned.

 

[island]

I agree Sarah and I'm fairly new on the job. People always say they don't know, even when you have explained it to them. I always find super off peaks in the peak am trains and they have never been told of the restrictions even though I have announced four times before we left the station that they are not valid on my train!!

Some super off-peak tickets are valid on your train. General announcements of this sort cause passenger confusion.

 

[SJN]

Some super off-peak tickets are valid on your train. General announcements of this sort cause passenger confusion.

Actually I always clearly announce what tickets are valid on my train thanks. I have been complimented several times about how clear and understandable they are and which tickets do you think are valid which aren't?

 

[island]

Actually I always clearly announce what tickets are valid on my train thanks. I have been complimented several times about how clear and understandable they are and which tickets do you think are valid which aren't?

Not falling into your loaded question trap. There are no tickets which I think are valid but aren't; I am very well-informed about ticket validity and if I have any doubt I will express it. It is very likely that there exists at least one super off-peak ticket which is valid under at least some circumstances for at least some part of the journey of the trains you work.

I'm not sure which train route(s) you work on, but given your location of Birmingham, I'm going to have a punt that you work trains from there to London, and an example is that a super off-peak return from Milton Keynes C to Peterborough is valid on any train at all from Milton Keynes C to London.

 

[SJN]

Not falling into your loaded question trap. There are no tickets which I think are valid but aren't; I am very well-informed about ticket validity and if I have any doubt I will express it. It is very likely that there exists at least one super off-peak ticket which is valid under at least some circumstances for at least some part of the journey of the trains you work.

I'm not sure which train route(s) you work on, but given your location of Birmingham, I'm going to have a punt that you work trains from there to London, and an example is that a super off-peak return from Milton Keynes C to Peterborough is valid on any train at all from Milton Keynes C to London.

One of my routes is Birmingham to Northampton so, no I do not cover the MKC route you mention.

I have no doubt you are very well informed regarding tickets but I don't think you should assume that my announcements are vague and lead to customer confusion without ever having heard one.

I also announce Virgin Trains Only tickets are not valid but always find several of those as well. I think you will agree there is nothing vague here!!

 

[neilmc]

I'm not sure why, in these scenarios, the ticket holder(s) don't explain the situation to another passenger who becomes their missing member for the purposes of ticket inspection.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure why, in these scenarios, the ticket holder(s) don't explain the situation to another passenger who becomes their missing member for the purposes of ticket inspection.

Probably because it defies logic that passengers in possession of all the tickets - who would be deemed as being in possession of valid tickets by sensible TOCs (e.g. Scotrail) - would suddenly be deemed to be invalid due to illness of a member of their party.

I have no doubt you are very well informed regarding tickets but I don't think you should assume that my announcements are vague and lead to customer confusion without ever having heard one.

I agree that no such assumption can be made until more information is available.

If the announcement stated something along the lines of "Some Super Off Peak tickets are not valid...." then that would cover it, as I am not sure it'd be possible to detail all the possibilities.

For example Long Buckby - Penzance or Long Buckby - Peterborough Super Off Peak tickets (routed +Any Permitted) would be valid at any time on a Birmingham - Northampton service between Long Buckby and Northampton, to give a couple of examples.

 

[SJN]

Probably because it defies logic that passengers in possession of all the tickets - who would be deemed as being in possession of valid tickets by sensible TOCs (e.g. Scotrail) - would suddenly be deemed to be invalid due to illness of a member of their party.

I agree that no such assumption can be made until more information is available.

If the announcement stated something along the lines of "Some Super Off Peak tickets are not valid...." then that would cover it, as I am not sure it'd be possible to detail all the possibilities.

For example Long Buckby - Penzance or Long Buckby - Peterborough Super Off Peak tickets (routed +Any Permitted) would be valid at any time on a Birmingham - Northampton service between Long Buckby and Northampton, to give a couple of examples.

Thanks Yorkie. I agree it's not possible to detail everything. I usually make my main announcements at BHM and the tickets that are and aren't valid from there and then make my usual trip down the train and explain any other tickets to the individuals concerned.

 

[sarahj]

You cannot get too bogged down in what you announce. Passengers just zone out.
I remember once doing a one for the 08.45 and said that off peak tickets are not valid on this service unless you hold one for a destination beyond London. Well of couse there was one with an off peak travel card, and his excuse, well I'm going to Finsbury Park, thats beyond London. :roll:

But then you could say we dont help ourselves. A ticket that says not london is valid to Clapham Junction. (from down here), just realy means London T, but on the ticket it says not london.

 

[khib70]

I regularly book for groups of 10-15 on EC to travel on their trains, and the website will obligingly produce a Small Group fare for between 3-9 passengers, complete with 30%ish discount. I split the group into two or more smaller groups, depending on the numbers. On at least two occasions a member of the group hasn't been able to travel and the TM's in both directions didn't turn a hair.

Indeed, to cover my back, I posted a thread on here asking if there would be a problem, and received several helpful replies along the lines of "no there would be no problem, provided all tickets were present and the group was still within the qualifying limits for the discount". It was also pointed out (by Dave Newcastle, I think) that someone buying a ticket is under no obligation to use it.

This seems right and proper to me, but I realise that different TOC's have different group schemes and therefore different rules......

 

[Goatboy]

I have no doubt you are very well informed regarding tickets but I don't think you should assume that my announcements are vague and lead to customer confusion without ever having heard one.

So what do you say in your typical announcement?

 

[SJN]

So what do you say in your typical announcement?

Well, as I'm fairly new. I mainly stick to the script I was taught when I first started, altered a bit to suit me. Depending on the route I'm on and the time of day, it will generally be "Good Morning, this is the xxxxxxxx service to xxxxxx calling at xxxxxxxxxxx. First class is located xxxx. Any advance booked tickets must have the time xxxx printed on it. Any other times not valid. Virgin only tickets not valid.

Depending on time, I will say super off peak tickets not valid and tell them which train to get.

This announcement is only from the originating station. At other
main stations I just say destinatjon and calling points.

Of course some people zone out or have ear plugs in but I will speak to those on my ticket inspection.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Any advance booked tickets must have the time xxxx printed on it.

That's confusing in itself. If you go to a website and order tickets to be delivered or collected at a ticket machine, those are tickets booked in advance of travel. This could be rephrased with much the same meaning as advance booked tickets. They might however be in the railway's own jargon, Anytime, Off Peak, Super Off Peak or Advance. It's only the last of these that restricts the train.

 

[island]

That's a good announcement. I would slightly enhance it to include "Tickets marked Advance are only valid with the corresponding reservation coupon which must say valid at xx:xx. Some/most [super] off-peak tickets are not valid on this service and you may need to pay an excess fare." At the starting station you could also add "If you are not sure about the validity of your ticket please come and see me, I am in coach X/towards the front/middle/back of the train".

 

[SJN]

Hi. Yes that isn't a word for word announcement. I usually stress tickets marked advance and if I'm originating at Bham New St, I'm usually standing on the platform and tell people to speak to me if they are unsure if the ticket is valid. Again I am just going on what I have been asked say by my employers, changing some words around so that it fits the way I speak.

Any helpful suggestions to make things clearer for people are always welcome so thanks for that.

 

[island]

If you're originating at Birmingham N St then it's probably less of a big deal as the Network rule doesn't come into play until well down the line.