Grand Central HSTs?

[diligentdave]

If you are northern, how come you "have quite a say in what goes on with GC"?

Well,if "we" at Northern are the ones who carry out the maintenance on GC,as we are,the trains cannot go into service without our safety checks,without the necessary paperwork being in place and the rest that comes with it.
My role is a very integral part of all this.
So,as Northern,in my particular position,I "have quite a say in what goes on with GC".

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

ah, Thanks diligentdave! You must be on the team currently installing OTMR/fixing the various faults that keep cropping up then!

I *think* we might be using the paths for training/proving runs, but don't quote me on that one!!

 

[rail-britain]

I find it hard to believe staff at Northern Rail would be carrying out maintenance on the rolling stock of GCR so soon after it had been delivered
Surely that would be the responsibility of the suppliers until GCR were happy with the work carried out
Furthermore, the rolling stock that Northern Rail maintain is no longer similar
Do Northern Rail maintain any of GNER rolling stock?
Or is it a more basic service preparation (water, clean, inspect)?
Arrangements are already in place to maintain th GCR rolling stock at Neville Hill and Bounds Green

Lastly, let's hope GCR don't suffer too many flat wheels!

 

[diligentdave]

I find it hard to believe staff at Northern Rail would be carrying out maintenance on the rolling stock of GCR so soon after it had been delivered
Surely that would be the responsibility of the suppliers until GCR were happy with the work carried out
Furthermore, the rolling stock that Northern Rail maintain is no longer similar
Do Northern Rail maintain any of GNER rolling stock?
Or is it a more basic service preparation (water, clean, inspect)?
Arrangements are already in place to maintain th GCR rolling stock at Neville Hill and Bounds Green

Lastly, let's hope GCR don't suffer too many flat wheels!

For someone who has so many fingers in so many pies your quotations and statements are very poor and lacking in substantiality.Your "gen" sources obviously don't know much either.
Northern Rail at Heaton aren't just "DMU" fitters. Their backgrounds and contracts cover a very wide range of rolling stock.
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ah, Thanks diligentdave! You must be on the team currently installing OTMR/fixing the various faults that keep cropping up then!

Nope,not me either.Thats Interfleet/Transys

 

[rail-britain]

Heaton used to maintain HST power cars and Mark 3 coaches, but this was removed in the early 1990s and moved to Craigentinny
I've seen a few GNER sets stabled at Heaton, but nothing more than that, and most recently it has been Class 91 and Mark 4 coaches
If there is maintenance of HST and Mark 3 coaches still underway at Heaton, then the diagrams don't allow for it

My main point is about "heavy maintenance"
I understand that Heaton can probably handle overnight maintenance on BT10 bogies, as is required at least once a week, as well as checking and inspecting, as is required by an A exam
However, rostering maintenance could be quite difficult as it will have to be performed wherever the spare set is or overnight

For example, lets say the buffet car suffers a hot axle box on the first trip southbound
If the spare set is available at Ferme Park, then this releases the faulty set for repair at Bounds Green
However, if the spare set is at Heaton then this may result in the train having to be terminated also affecting the northbound, whilst it returns to Heaton
Furthermore, from what I can work out, there is no spare buffet car, which is why I used this as an example!
Given there will be nine HST power cars with six in use each day, two on spare, and one available, that allows plenty of flexibility on a day to day basis, the problem is where to keep the spares!

 

[diligentdave]

Heaton used to maintain HST power cars and Mark 3 coaches, but this was removed in the early 1990s and moved to Craigentinny
I've seen a few GNER sets stabled at Heaton, but nothing more than that, and most recently it has been Class 91 and Mark 4 coaches
If there is maintenance of HST and Mark 3 coaches still underway at Heaton, then the diagrams don't allow for it

My main point is about "heavy maintenance"
I understand that Heaton can probably handle overnight maintenance on BT10 bogies, as is required at least once a week, as well as checking and inspecting, as is required by an A exam
However, rostering maintenance could be quite difficult as it will have to be performed wherever the spare set is or overnight

For example, lets say the buffet car suffers a hot axle box on the first trip southbound
If the spare set is available at Ferme Park, then this releases the faulty set for repair at Bounds Green
However, if the spare set is at Heaton then this may result in the train having to be terminated also affecting the northbound, whilst it returns to Heaton
Furthermore, from what I can work out, there is no spare buffet car, which is why I used this as an example!
Given there will be nine HST power cars with six in use each day, two on spare, and one available, that allows plenty of flexibility on a day to day basis, the problem is where to keep the spares!

Heaton depot carries out overnight "service" exams on both Class 91/Mk4 stock and HST/Mk3 stock. They also carry out repairs (depending on size and type)on these GNER sets.
Also,on a weekly basis,they carry out B exams on the NMT,which is of course HST/Mk3 stock.Also,heavy exams on the trailer cars of this set,as the power car overhauls go to Craigentinny.
9 HST power cars for GC theres not. There are 6 power cars, 4 in service at any one time,and a spare rake of Mk3's.
As for maintenance being carried out at Bounds Green, thats a bit of a non plus isn't it,seeing the amount of acrimony there is between GNER and GC over the paths of the trains.

 

[rail-britain]

Rechecked the source material, slight correction to make although GCR does have access to nine HST power cars
They are shown as owned by HNRC with an unspecified depot, so no doubt that will change
Initially six will be in service, with four on sets and two spares
This will increase to nine towards the end of this year

 

[diligentdave]

Rechecked the source material, slight correction to make although GCR does have access to nine HST power cars
They are shown as owned by HNRC with an unspecified depot, so no doubt that will change
Initially six will be in service, with four on sets and two spares
This will increase to nine towards the end of this year

Once again,your source material seems to have come from cloud cuckoo land. With only 2 trains required for a full service (check your timetables) that then leaves 2 spare power cars and one rake of trailers for cover/maintenance services.
Just tell me,who is overhauling the extra 3 power cars you talk about?
Considering the contract between GC and DML is for 6 power cars only.

 

[rail-britain]

Apologies reading the wrong documents with regards to GCR power cars and their stock requirements, I'm referring to something completely different!
Agree, six power cars
The other three power cars on the DML documentation are for EMT and NMT
A decision hasn't been made on where the remaining spare power cars will be going, although three of them are shown as provisionally GCR (which is where I get the nine from)

 

[diligentdave]

Apologies reading the wrong documents with regards to GCR power cars and their stock requirements, I'm referring to something completely different!
Agree, six power cars
The other three power cars on the DML documentation are for EMT and NMT

I've got a feeling that your getting confused between power cars and power units.
DML overhaul valenta power units for all HST owners (great facility, I've been there). This includes GNER,MML and NMT.
I know for a fact that DML are desperately trying to empty the "shed" (in truth its a massive building) that currently house the GC power cars, as they have a massive yacht building contract to fill that space.

 

[BOSCH]

As Dave has stated why would any maintenance go to a GNER depot when there has been so much acrimony,GNER have fought to block us at every turn,even the staff at york lied to NR about us causing a 5 minute delay leaving york when we had the DRS stock and 47's out a few weeks ago,we actually left to time !! Im hoping that the relationship with NEG maybe better but who knows what will happen !

Ian Mitchell,a failure of the self propelled hot drinks dispenser would be a catastrophe,it doesnt bare thinking about !! hock:

 

[paul1609]

Once again,your source material seems to have come from cloud cuckoo land. With only 2 trains required for a full service (check your timetables) that then leaves 2 spare power cars and one rake of trailers for cover/maintenance services.
Just tell me,who is overhauling the extra 3 power cars you talk about?
Considering the contract between GC and DML is for 6 power cars only.
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Now that is the actual burning question in all of this

Whilst it is theoretically possible to run GCs service with 2 train sets providing you can achieve 100% reliability, it would also require the same set be stabled in London every night. That seems a tadge unlikely to me. I think the contingency timetable shown on their website seems more likely whilst only 2 sets are available.

 

[diligentdave]

Whilst it is theoretically possible to run GCs service with 2 train sets providing you can achieve 100% reliability, it would also require the same set be stabled in London every night. That seems a tadge unlikely to me. I think the contingency timetable shown on their website seems more likely whilst only 2 sets are available.

The timetable shown on their website is the timetable they are running to.Its not a contingency.
I am in possession of the timings for all ECS movements,and believe me, the overnight London stock move takes some believing!
The sets alternate each day as to which one stays in London,ie.Mondays London set returns to Heaton Tuesday and vice versa.
This gives them the scope to change sets midweek if faults arise.
This is also the purpose of having 2 riding inspectors for the service.
1 up,1 down.

 

[paul1609]

I've got a feeling that your getting confused between power cars and power units.
DML overhaul valenta power units for all HST owners (great facility, I've been there). This includes GNER,MML and NMT.
I know for a fact that DML are desperately trying to empty the "shed" (in truth its a massive building) that currently house the GC power cars, as they have a massive yacht building contract to fill that space.

Working for one of the non rail users of valentas and having been responsible for fitting engines from 3 different contractors I'd say that DML are by far the best in this field.

 

[BOSCH]

Whilst it is theoretically possible to run GCs service with 2 train sets providing you can achieve 100% reliability, it would also require the same set be stabled in London every night. That seems a tadge unlikely to me. I think the contingency timetable shown on their website seems more likely whilst only 2 sets are available.

Once the third set is ready and a full timetable is in operation then a set will be in london overnight,it works up to london as the 1730 ex s/land !

 

[andylloyd]

that makes sense.

 

[paul1609]

The timetable shown on their website is the timetable they are running to.Its not a contingency.
I am in possession of the timings for all ECS movements,and believe me, the overnight London stock move takes some believing!
The sets alternate each day as to which one stays in London,ie.Mondays London set returns to Heaton Tuesday and vice versa.
This gives them the scope to change sets midweek if faults arise.
This is also the purpose of having 2 riding inspectors for the service.
1 up,1 down.

Their website has a full and contingency timetable see;
http://www.grandcentralrail.co.uk/timetable.html

 

[diligentdave]

Yes,contingency plan amongst timetable,but this only caters for 1 set.
When the full timetable is in operation,it caters for 2 sets per week.
The idea is to have 1 servicable power car and 1 on maintenance at Heaton per week.
There will only be 2 sets in service at any one time.
You cannot expect to carry out overhaul/heavy maintenance on powers and trailers running 3 sets per week,there is no time built into the timetable to allow for this.

 

[Techniquest]

I agree with you there my friend,we were stood on the old dmu lines at heaton on wednesday morning when 067 started up,clag was not the word for it and it sounded like an engine should !!

Oh man I'm envious...No pictures?

Bring on storming out of Sunderland on a proper train. Hoping for 080 and 067 on the first day I get out for them, what with 080 being required for sight and haulage, 067 just for haulage.

Sunderland to London with a pair of noisy Valentas, Brush cooler groups and Marston fans...

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Unfortunately not!! I did have a camera with me though (those who know me will not be surprised at that!). Notch 1 out of Sunderland due to a certain Fire Alarm situation...

 

[diligentdave]

When are you next at Heaton Clag,I might come and introduce myself.I'll be the one wearing a pink carnation under the clock.Lol

 

[Tom]

Surely not on the inaugural run? We want bells and whistles to be going surely ... so why not notch 4!

 

[paul1609]

Yes,contingency plan amongst timetable,but this only caters for 1 set.
When the full timetable is in operation,it caters for 2 sets per week.
The idea is to have 1 servicable power car and 1 on maintenance at Heaton per week.
There will only be 2 sets in service at any one time.
You cannot expect to carry out overhaul/heavy maintenance on powers and trailers running 3 sets per week,there is no time built into the timetable to allow for this.

I cant see any viable way you could introduce a service with one set 7 days a week.
Maybe a few notional trains to keep the licence open until next year?

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

ROFL!!
Don't think we'd be too popular if we gassed someone on the inaugural run!!

See Contingency Timetable... 0646 ex S/land to KGX, then back to York, York to KGX, then 1650 back to Sunderland (m-f)

No Idea as to when I'll be back at Heaton. Wouldn't mind crawling all over the PCs with my big camera for lots of lovely detail shots, just in case someone wants to model it!!

 

[Techniquest]

Unfortunately not!! I did have a camera with me though (those who know me will not be surprised at that!). Notch 1 out of Sunderland due to a certain Fire Alarm situation...

Shame that.

Notch 1?! What is this, Penzance?!

I'll hope the more usual would be to notch 3 it straight off, notching up as the conditions allow. No FGW driving style, please!

 

[Techniquest]

ROFL!!
Don't think we'd be too popular if we gassed someone on the inaugural run!!

See Contingency Timetable... 0646 ex S/land to KGX, then back to York, York to KGX, then 1650 back to Sunderland (m-f)

Would sure make an interesting sight...

 

[Techniquest]

So what are the odds on starting in November, and do we have a better guess than 'mid-November' yet? If I were to travel with GC it means an awful long way and a lot of money to be used, not to mention the requiring time off work.

 

[Tom]

I cant see any viable way you could introduce a service with one set 7 days a week.
Maybe a few notional trains to keep the licence open until next year?

Hull Trains seem to be managing just fine with 100% stock availability required...

 

[rail-britain]

I've mentioned it already, the service start date appears on the ORR website!
If GCR miss this "final" one then they will need to submit a new application
To avoid this, there is a contingency to hire a set from MML, and there is a ECS move in their track access agreement, between York and Neville Hill
It's not perfect or ideal, but it does at least get the service under way for a full launch in December
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hull Trains seem to be managing just fine with 100% stock availability required...

Having two trains out of service is not 100% stock availability!

 

[Tom]

Two trains? They only have 1 out of service.

They require three trains, and they have three trains available, so 100% required.