Colchester to Cambridge Reinstatement

[Tobbes]

I may stand corrected, but that would be, by a distance, the largest s106 ever!

I jest, but only slightly. If you're asking for a second runway, the price back in 2008 was £4bn, and is probably in the £5-6bn now, depending on the size of the terminal. Two things make me think that there may be something in the idea of a £300-£600m s106 fund (5-10%).

First, given the (significant and voluble) opposition to Stansted expansion, the local population in Dunmow / Braintree need to be bought off; the railway is a good start.

Second, Stansted needs to move up the value chain, which means more than cheep-as-chips flights to the continent. But every long-haul carrier wants something different to Stansted (called Heathrow), so getting a major carrier (or alliance, ideally) to make Stansted a hub is going to require a comparable service to Gatwick at least. And if I'm Manchester Airport Group (owners of Stansted), I want to make more money from higher margin business - the train and second runway are pretty key to this.

So, maybe....! (After all, s106 has unlocked funding for Northern Line to Battersea - whatever you think of this as an idea.Incidentally, I suspect that the support to Crossrail is the biggest.)

Tobbes

 

[306024]

Yes, I'd presumed it was the case. 2 tph in each direction would not necessarily provide a 15 min clockface departure to/from Stansted - it would be interesting if the Planners could give us some idea of what would be required to do this - I've always liked the HeX proposition of a train waiting at Paddington, and, more often than not, T5. If Stansted is to expand, it would be sensible to bag a couple of platforms at Liverpool Street (released by Crossrail?) to provide the same level of service - along with train-in-platform connection at Stansted. Presumably StanEx services would call at Bishop's Stortford, Tottenham Hale or Braintree, Witham and Shenfield (to provide regional connectivity to Stansted) running fast from Shenfield and Tottenham Hale to LSt.

The current Stansted Express service is very similar to HEX. Running every 15 minutes, it is planned for a train to always be available to board at both Liverpool St and Stansted Airport. Platforms 4 and 5 are the usual STEX platforms at Liverpool St except in the peaks. HEX however generally only have one train at a time at Heathrow, the other platform at T5 is needed for the Heathrow Connect empty stock working.

A circular working seems a bit ambitious, it would take ages to recover from disruption, which is not ideal on an airport service. Airport services need to be simple and reliable, and easy to put right when things go wrong.

 

[Eagle]

The current Stansted Express service is very similar to HEX.

Apart from the fact that StEx isn't non-stop (apart from a few late night services), of course.

 

[306024]

Indeed, but given the size of Harlow and Bishops Stortford, they help provide a decent service for these towns to link to the airport, as well as London.

 

[RYS]

The problem with Stansted Express is it takes so damn long. It's a joke calling it "express". Can't anything be done about the linespeed?

 

[Bald Rick]

The problem with Stansted Express is it takes so damn long. It's a joke calling it "express". Can't anything be done about the linespeed?

Yes, expensively, between Tottenham and Broxbourne, but even going to 125mph only saves 2 mins (and the timetable then doesn't work without 4 tracks). Very difficult north of Brox as the railway is almost all limited by track geometry.

 

[306024]

Well that's why there is all the talk of four tracking the Lea Valley, although you'll still have the torture of getting to Tottenham Hale. You need to remove the slow trains to be able to speed up the airport trains. Stansted Airport is 37 miles from Liverpool St after all, compared to say Gatwick which is 27 miles from Victoria.

 

[Tobbes]

Yes, expensively, between Tottenham and Broxbourne, but even going to 125mph only saves 2 mins (and the timetable then doesn't work without 4 tracks). Very difficult north of Brox as the railway is almost all limited by track geometry.

So we need StanEx 390s with EPS?

The serious point is right, of course - Stansted is just under an hour from Liverpool Street, meaning that it is (psychologically) just too damn far for most business types doing long-haul.

Assuming four tracks is put in place (and I know it's an assumption...!) with tilt how much could you reduce the LSt to STN times? Ideally, headline journey time of 30 mins please engineers and planners... 74mph average. (Or 25 mins at 89 mph average....?)

Tobbes

 

[Eagle]

SIdeally, headline journey time of 30 mins please engineers and planners...

Necessitating an average speed of 74 mph.

Here's the solution: build a brand new line between Central London and Stansted. Other than that I don't see how 30 minutes is possible. Stansted's just too far away.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's not an hour though, it's 45-49 mins for most trains, or about 35 if you get the tube to/ from Tottenham Hale.

Nevertheless, with tilting trains, 4 tracks Tottenham - Brox, and not stopping north of Tottenham, 30 mins would be just about doable.

However that's not going to happen. My money is on Gatwick for the 2nd runway and rail corridor development (see today's announcement).

 

[306024]

To see what can be possible, look at the 125mph link between Stockholm and Arlanda Airport. 25 miles in 20 minutes. But with fares that make HEX look a bargain

 

[Eagle]

To see what can be possible, look at the 125mph link between Stockholm and Arlanda Airport. 25 miles in 20 minutes. But with fares that make HEX look a bargain

Or the 268 mph link between Shanghai and Pudong Airport.

 

[joeykins82]

HS3!

Liverpool Street - Stansted Airport - Cambridge - Peterborough <
NE branch to HS2 at Toton
NW branch to HS2 at Birmingham Interchange via Leicester

 

[Tobbes]

It's not an hour though, it's 45-49 mins for most trains, or about 35 if you get the tube to/ from Tottenham Hale.

You're right, of course, Bald Rick, but I was thinking psychologically of up to a 15 min wait and then 45 mins.

Nevertheless, with tilting trains, 4 tracks Tottenham - Brox, and not stopping north of Tottenham, 30 mins would be just about doable.

I was slightly kidding - but fascinating that it is at least theoretically feasible. Is 4 tracking Tottenham - Brox actually planned and funded?

However that's not going to happen. My money is on Gatwick for the 2nd runway and rail corridor development (see today's announcement).

Agreed, at least not anytime soon. The question is whether Heathrow gets new runways, and if so, all other non-Gatwick bets are off.

Tobbes

 

[Bald Rick]

I was slightly kidding - but fascinating that it is at least theoretically feasible. Is 4 tracking Tottenham - Brox actually planned and funded?

Tobbes

No and definitely no.

 

[joeykins82]

The TfL draft business plan referred to a 3rd track on the Tottenham Hale route IIRC

 

[jopsuk]

As I understand it, current plan is for a third track I think between Tottenham and Brimsdown? But to be built with provision for a fourth and future extension

 

[Tobbes]

Jopsuk - has any of this work bee costed? And specifically is there any idea on the incremental cost of going to four tracks from three at the same time?

Thanks,

Toby

 

[CockneySparrow]

Tesco have built on the route in Haverhill
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Compelling. Hopefully the planners will read this thread and start building tomorrow

IF Stansted (not Stanstead - for the final time) Airport is developed then it may be worth a look at Braintree - Stansted, but even that may not stack up.

As for Colchester - Cambridge, dream on I'm afraid.

Would CC run the service?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

*To be a proper diversionary route you'd need to reinstate Long Melford - Bury St Eds - Thetford, and then Roundham Junction to Swaffham, and Swaffham to Middleton Towers, with a South-to-West chord on to the revived M&GN to join the Birmingham to Peterborough line at Saxby, so you could avoid Cambridge, Peterborough and the ECML too...!

Reopen March to Spalding line through Murrow

 

[Z12XE]

I guess the business case for any of this simply doesn't exist.

Stansted Airport is seeing a reduction in passenger numbers (although ok they are trying to address that), but coming back to the line via Haverhill - last I heard from the group which used to exist to try and reopen it was that wagonload freight would be its justification! and that perhaps the Tesco which was to then be built at Haverhill could have its stock delivered by freight train, since they seem to have no sense of how railfreight now works they aren't really going to convince anyone of importance to back them