Wrexham redouble

[jones_bangor]

Crewe to Chester is currently 2 tph, Chester to Llandundo Jnc roughly 2.5 tph and west of Llandudno Jnc 1.5 tph. Increasing the Cardiff service to hourly would mean that at least a third of trains as far as the Junction and half west of there would havte to be diesel powered this would negate the benefits of electrification to a considerable degree.

Given that there will be plenty of candidates in CP6 why would a line where the full benefits would not be realized be an early candidate? if I was in the SW of England or on a Pacer Ghetto in the North I would certainly make the most of the fact that the "competition" would have smaller benefits and not use the investment properly compared to my patch.

This is purely speculation at this stage, who knows what's on the cards here....

North Wales electrification is probably 10 years away "on the ground" anyway, so the use of 125s to achieve an hourly Holyhead - Cardiff won't affect that.

Wiring the Marches at the same time as North Wales might make a better business case,

 

[Gareth Marston]

This is purely speculation at this stage, who knows what's on the cards here....

North Wales electrification is probably 10 years away "on the ground" anyway, so the use of 125s to achieve an hourly Holyhead - Cardiff won't affect that.

Wiring the Marches at the same time as North Wales might make a better business case,

When the industry got its wires lobbying in gear and persuaded DfT that "self powered trains" not using diesels were not going to happen Network Rail put schemes into tranches. NWC Main Line was in a higher tranche than the Marches.

So either the Marches have to queue jump so we can have the wires to Holyhead and hourly trains to Cardiff cake or the North Wales Coast does without wires until such time as the hourly Holyhead to Cardiff service can be electric all the way - CP8 or CP9? Given that just 3% of the North Wales passenger market is currently North Wales/ South Wales traffic is the tail not trying to wag the dog here?

 

[pablo]

I agree with what you say in many ways. But there is no escaping the fact that this cut back is specifically down to a Minister in Welsh Government, no one else & made without reference to anyone in North East Wales, this includes all AMs/MPs/County Councils/Transport Consortia & the private sector,this is shocking arrogance to an area desperate for better rail connections to the North West especially with the known extra huge footfall when the Super Prison opens.
For a WG spokesperson to say this would allow an extra train every two hours to Cardiff is living in another world.

Why bleat? Get stuck in there! Turf 'em out and redirect the loot your way.

Perhaps consider UDI for North Wales? Don't know what you'd do for money though.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Sadly there are plenty of examples of rail projects that could have been done better but there is not an unlimited supply of money. I do think it would be nice if a project could be done properly rather than being picked at which in the long term costs more. But sometimes the bigger picture cannot be justified. An example was the DLR which was built with trains too small for the resulting passenger levels, but would anything have been built if they had attempted to do it properly in the first place ?. Things have to evolve.

I suppose its worth remembering that we live in a car centric nation so nationally most people would possible be just as happy if the line even closed !.

Lets be glad for what progress there is and do our best to build on it.

 

[merlodlliw]

Sadly there are plenty of examples of rail projects that could have been done better but there is not an unlimited supply of money. I do think it would be nice if a project could be done properly rather than being picked at which in the long term costs more. But sometimes the bigger picture cannot be justified. An example was the DLR which was built with trains too small for the resulting passenger levels, but would anything have been built if they had attempted to do it properly in the first place ?. Things have to evolve.

I suppose its worth remembering that we live in a car centric nation so nationally most people would possible be just as happy if the line even closed !.

Lets be glad for what progress there is and do our best to build on it.

With all respect,WG found £52M to buy Cardiff Airport from reserves without any problem,WG own the new prison site at Wrexham, so they will either lease it or sell it,so there is money in the area that could be used to do a proper job on the railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why bleat? Get stuck in there! Turf 'em out and redirect the loot your way.

Perhaps consider UDI for North Wales? Don't know what you'd do for money though.

If we dont bleat as you put it, we wont get anywhere.

 

[TDK]

That is correct,I put it up on this earlier, It appears we have found where the Minister as got her savings from, a colleague informs me.



So it seems an hourly Train between Holyhead & Cardiff via Wrexham will shave 16 minutes off the journey and solve all the problems,I dont thnk so.

The 16 minutes is because of less station stops on the so called express service, doubling the line cannot save any more than 5 minutes even with the enhanced line speeds, all you will get is slightly less capacity as the re-double is not the whole length of the single line, if they enhanced the speeds on the existing track between Saltney Junction and Shrewsbury as I believe they are doing then this will be just as good for journey times.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Welsh Governments position is is that NR upped the costs from £45 million to £55 million.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Welsh Governments position is is that NR upped the costs from £45 million to £55 million.

Was any detailed cost breakdown of the extra £10 million given ?

 

[merlodlliw]

The Welsh Governments position is is that NR upped the costs from £45 million to £55 million.

Gareth, this is the first we have heard of NR upping the cost by £10M,if that was the situation the Minister should have been open,she only has herself to blame for being so secretive,alas this is her trait. However WG own the site where the new jail is to be built, so it will be either sold or leased to Ministry Of Justice for £millions,so money is in the area.
Or will this cash be just clawed back to WG reserves,

 

[jones_bangor]

Gareth, this is the first we have heard of NR upping the cost by £10M,if that was the situation the Minister should have been open,she only has herself to blame for being so secretive,alas this is her trait. However WG own the site where the new jail is to be built, so it will be either sold or leased to Ministry Of Justice for £millions,so money is in the area.
Or will this cash be just clawed back to WG reserves,

Given the rapidly deteriorating public finances in Wales, expect the latter and pray there are no more delays on the track work.

 

[merlodlliw]

Given the rapidly deteriorating public finances in Wales, expect the latter and pray there are no more delays on the track work.

Having seen WG dig deep into its reserves to buy Cardiff Airport £52M, I am not surprised now at anything WG do to recover these reserves,except we in the North wont benefit from the Cardiff Airport buy , and loose out in Wrexhams rail redouble.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Was any detailed cost breakdown of the extra £10 million given ?

Sorry Paul I don't have any breakdown but the Ministers decision making evolved around this cost increase and the figure of £10 million. Can any NR sources verify this?

 

[merlodlliw]

Sorry Paul I don't have any breakdown but the Ministers decision making evolved around this cost increase and the figure of £10 million. Can any NR sources verify this?

As we are on the Wrexham thread, I have have sent out this e mail to colleagues, the info comes from a letter to all AMs dated 20th November sent by WG Minister Edwina Hart about axing The Wales Passenger Transport Users Committee

Wales Rail Minister Edwina Hart has now killed off the PTUC quango , This comes as no surprise to me,I am by no means a supporter of the Minister, ,I found this Committee a total waste of time having experienced their non understanding of how to even contact any rail user in Wrexham. Or having the ability to notify anyone they were even having a meeting in Wrexham.

If anyone wishes to see the letter from the Minister,please PM me with an e mail address


Bob

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the known extra huge footfall when the Super Prison opens.

It's not that huge is it? 1000 people a week (allegedly) = about 143 a day spread over how many trains? This will add maybe 5-10 people to each service (taking the most simple average, admittedly), so the prison is hardly a significant factor for the rail scheme.

 

[merlodlliw]

It's not that huge is it? 1000 people a week (allegedly) = about 143 a day spread over how many trains? This will add maybe 5-10 people to each service (taking the most simple average, admittedly), so the prison is hardly a significant factor for the rail scheme.

The main visiting hours will be in late morning and afternoon, not all 20 hours Mon/Sat that trains run through Wrexham,plus there will be 1K staff as well,many of these will use the trains.
Most visitors will use the already busy trains in the afternoon, only time will tell,

 

[cle]

Not to mention released crims...

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The main visiting hours will be in late morning and afternoon, not all 20 hours Mon/Sat that trains run through Wrexham,plus there will be 1K staff as well,many of these will use the trains.
Most visitors will use the already busy trains in the afternoon, only time will tell,

I'm intrigued by your assertion that 'many' staff and visitors will use the trains to travel to the prison, is there any evidence of this at other prisons?...or are you just speculating?

 

[Squaddie]

I'm intrigued by your assertion that 'many' staff and visitors will use the trains to travel to the prison, is there any evidence of this at other prisons?...or are you just speculating?

The official planning application says that there will be 764 staff at the prison, working shifts, 80% of whom are expected to drive to work. It is anticipated that there will be approximately 100 visitors per day (for 2,100 inmates), again arriving mostly by car or bus. The plans include 300 parking spaces for staff and 120 for visitors, which would seem to be more than enough.

So it looks as though the official consultation has come to the conclusion that the prison will have a minimal effect on the number of rail passengers using Wrexham.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

it looks as though the official consultation has come to the conclusion that the prison will have a minimal effect on the number of rail passengers using Wrexham

Hi Squaddie,

Thanks for digging out those figures, which confirm what at least some of us suspected was obvious! I'm actually very pleased that the re-doubling is going ahead (or at least part of it...) but I just think it's pointless dreaming up extra and highly tenuous claims to support the rail scheme - after all, if I can see straight through it, so can anyone else!

TOTD

 

[jones_bangor]

....I just think it's pointless dreaming up extra and highly tenuous claims to support the rail scheme - after all, if I can see straight through it, so can anyone else!

That's a good point.

Let's be absolutely clear about this, Wrexham - Saltney improvements are taking place to improve rail journey times between North and South Wales. This is a Welsh Government priority identified in numerous strategies.

 

[Squaddie]

Thanks for digging out those figures, which confirm what at least some of us suspected was obvious!

Unfortunately, every thread about Welsh railways ends up being full of political attacks and point-scoring and very little in the way of facts. On this occasion I was determined to make a bit of an effort to find the facts and cut through all the political fog.

For the record, I'm all in favour of the complete redoubling of the line through Wrexham, but against the use of made-up statistics and political conjecture to support the case for the project.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unfortunately, every thread about Welsh railways ends up being full of political attacks and point-scoring and very little in the way of facts. On this occasion I was determined to make a bit of an effort to find the facts and cut through all the political fog.

For the record, I'm all in favour of the complete redoubling of the line through Wrexham, but against the use of made-up statistics and political conjecture to support the case for the project.

Welcome to devolution politics!
Ironically, as it now stands all the redoubling work will be done in Network Rail's LNW Route (with signalling from Chester Power Box) and none in the Wales Route.
Of the 5.5 miles being doubled between Saltney and Rossett, 4 are in England.

 

[The Planner]

Rumour has it they are not putting in the planned IB section at Ty Croes either.

 

[pablo]

Rumour has it they are not putting in the planned IB section at Ty Croes either.

Oooh. You stirrer!

 

[merlodlliw]

The official planning application says that there will be 764 staff at the prison, working shifts, 80% of whom are expected to drive to work. It is anticipated that there will be approximately 100 visitors per day (for 2,100 inmates), again arriving mostly by car or bus. The plans include 300 parking spaces for staff and 120 for visitors, which would seem to be more than enough.

So it looks as though the official consultation has come to the conclusion that the prison will have a minimal effect on the number of rail passengers using Wrexham.

Perhaps you can point me & All of us to this application,which states all the figures you quote about chapter & Verse.I note you mention expected & anticipated,plus your opinion

It appears the new Jail on the Shots line increased use is" pie in the sky" then, the figures came from an RF member, not me.

Yesterday in the Senedd may interest a few RF members,below

Rail Infrastructure



Mark IsherwoodCymEng






2. Will the Minister make a statement on rail infrastructure in North Wales? OAQ(4)0345(EST)



Edwina HartCymEng



I am committed to improving rail infrastructure in north Wales and I am leading on the development of a business case for the modernisation of the rail network in the region.



Mark IsherwoodCymEng

Thank you for that. Will you provide clarity on what is happening with the redoubling of the Wrexham-Saltney rail line? Prior to your review of that, Network Rail e-mailed saying that 7.5 miles of new line would go ahead in October following approval from the Welsh Government. After your review, you announced redoubling by spring 2015, but it appears from the Welsh Government website that 2 miles have been lost, and it is now only 5.5 miles, which halves the number of trains that will be able to access the track hourly, preventing a shuttle service and limiting late-running trains and increased freight trains. I understand the Welsh Government’s position now is that Network Rail increased the costs by £10 million to £55 million. So, could we have clarity on exactly what is happening with this line?

Edwina HartCymEng

A number of Members have already written to me, and I have hopefully provided clarification for them in terms of the Wrexham-Saltney rail project, which we see as being absolutely essential. The scheme will involve doubling the line between Wrexham and Chester, redoubling the 5.5 miles of line between Rossett and Saltney, line-speed improvements between Shrewsbury and Gobowen, line-speed improvements between Rossett and Chester, and upgrading level crossings. The result of these enhancements will be an ability to run an extra train every two hours between Holyhead and Cardiff via Wrexham in both directions, and a reduction of up to 16 minutes in the journey time between Holyhead and Cardiff. However, in view of the interest, Deputy Presiding Officer, I will issue a letter to all Members going into the detail of the scheme.

Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-ThomasCymEng




Would the Minister be willing to meet with light rail providers and also narrow gauge rail providers—steam railways—in north Wales to consider the possibility of having developments similar to those she is considering at present, and which I welcome most warmly, here in the south-east?

Edwina HartCymEng


I would be delighted to meet them, and my office will contact them to put the necessary meetings in place. I do regard rail infrastructure as particularly important for us in Wales.





Aled RobertsCymEng




Minister, I welcome the fact that you will be writing to us, but, clearly, while the extra capacity for north-south links is maintained under the revised scheme, there was concern expressed by MPs last week regarding the impact on connectivity both with Liverpool and Manchester. The halving of capacity on the route would in effect block further enhancements. Was any assessment carried out of the impact of that decision with regard to discussions that the integrated transport group for north-east Wales is considering?





Edwina HartCymEng


Bearing that in mind, I will ask my officials to look at what previous assessments have been made, and, of course, I will ask my colleague Lesley Griffiths to look at it with her working group as it continues to meet to look at the assessment of transport needs in north Wales. You can have my assurance, and I will report back.

Not a mention of the lost two miles of redoubling,like most in Wrexham commute to Cardiff, perhaps 3% do,

 

[Squaddie]

Perhaps you can point me & All of us to this application,which states all the figures you quote about chapter & Verse.I note you mention expected & anticipated,plus your opinion

Yes, of course the planning application "anticipates" and "expects", because it is attempting to foresee something that has not yet happened.

All the documents can be found in the Planning section on the website of Wrexham County Borough Council. There's a lot of information there, although you'll need the patience of Job to download the documents because the site is extremely slow. High-level summaries of (and links to) the various documents can also be found on a website called www.wrexham.com.

Upon re-reading the documents I've discovered an error on the wrexham.com site that I inadvertently repeated in my previous post: it is anticipated that there will be 100 visitors per visiting session, not per day. (There will be three sessions per day). However, it is still anticipated that most visitors will arrive by car or bus - hence the number of visitor parking places. For the visitors who choose to come by rail, it expects some to catch a bus from Chester and some from Wrexham General, and concludes that using the existing rail service is both feasible and viable.

As I said, I fully support complete redoubling of this line. But there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the building of this prison will place significant additional demand upon the rail service.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Yes, of course the planning application "anticipates" and "expects", because it is attempting to foresee something that has not yet happened.

...whereas using terms such as

with the arrival of the Super Prison in 2017, this alone will generate enormous passenger footfall.

and

the known extra huge footfall when the Super Prison opens

is simply lining oneself up for ridicule because the prospect of being inaccurate (let alone wildly wrong) isn't even contemplated...

 

[merlodlliw]

As I said, I fully support complete redoubling of this line. But there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the building of this prison will place significant additional demand upon the rail service.

[/QUOTE]

A figure of 2K visitors a week visiting Wrexham prison, will put extra pressure on the current capacity at Wrexham General, not all will travel by car or bus from Chester station to Wrexham.
It is the opinion of Taith,Local MP, North Wales AMs and Wrexham County Council & others including myself that significant additional demand will be put on the rail service.

 

[Squaddie]

It is the opinion of Taith,Local MP, North Wales AMs and Wrexham County Council & others including myself that significant additional demand will be put on the rail service.

You are, of course, entitled to hold that opinion. I am quoting from the planning application documents, which expect 80% of employees and a majority of visitors to arrive by car. (As mentioned, there will be 120 parking spaces for an average of 100 visitors per visiting session).

You seem to be forgetting that a large number of visitors, particularly those coming from elsewhere in north Wales, are likely to be starting their journeys in places that are either not connected to the rail network (e.g. Caernarfon, Dolgellau and many other major towns) or from which the journeys would be long and involve several changes of train (e.g. Blaenau Ffestiniog and the Cambrian coast). For these visitors, improvements to rail services through Wrexham are of no significance and unlikely to affect their decision to travel by car or bus. People don't like changing trains, because the connections are not perceived as reliable, and they like having to change from bus to train and back to bus even less.

 

[pablo]

Has Edwina Hart got a clue what she is talking about?

BTW, I wish peeps understood the difference between 'anticpate' and 'expect'. They don't mean the same thing. Whenever I see anticipate, I ask myself what they have done to anticipate the expected event. QED?