Portsmouth Direct - an interesting report

[KeithP]

http://www.portsmouthsociety.org.uk/nl2007/SWT report sep07.pdf

 

[Bighat]

http://www.portsmouthsociety.org.uk/nl2007/SWT report sep07.pdf

A most interesting and thorough report.

Certainly puts SWT management in a very poor light.

Tom will LOVE it!

 

[Daniel]

Tom is PART of that campaign IIRC! lol

 

[Tom]

Indeedy I am

A fair bit of the info I have went into that

 

[Daniel]

Good man! *hi-fives*

 

[Gizmogle]

At least wait until I've got all the 450s before you go getting rid of them please

Great report and great site, with very good points. But I don't think that SWT are going to do anything about it.

There were alot of people complaining about Portsmouth 450s when SWT had the live webchat. As usual, the overcrowding excuse was used.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Presumably, instead of having a 12-car 450 with 711 seats, they'd rather have a 10-car 444 with only 598 standard class seats and 113 passengers standing. But, of course, those who get on at Portsmouth will get a seat regardless. It'll be the poor b*****s from further up the line who have to stand!

Tell me, didn't the 4-VEPs, which regularly saw service on the Portsmouth line, have 3+2 seating. And don't the 166 Turbos that do the London to Banbury (76¼ miles) and Hereford (149¾ miles) runs and the 365s which do the London to Kings Lynn (99¼ miles) and the London to Peterborough (76¼ miles) runs have 3+2 seating. Then there's the 360/0s that do London to Harwich (70¾ miles) and London to Ipswich (68¾ miles), the 350s on London to Northampton (65¾ miles) and beyond, not to mention the 319s doing Bedford to Brighton (103¾ miles), all with 3+2 seating.

Are you trying to tell us that the folk of South Hampshire are all lardbutts who can't fit in seats which are fine for everyone else? If not, what's so special about Portsmouth people?

 

[Tom]

It's not to do with the fact that it's 3+2 seating as much, it's more SWT literally just shifted stock that was originally earmarked for the Portsmouth line to the Bournemouth line with no advance consultation.

Also on the Great Eastern, you'll find that it's mainly 321s that do Harwich and Ipswich runs with the 360s on the Clacton runs.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Also, whilst 3+2 seated VEPs were used in the past, they were the exception rarther than the rule, the rule being CEPs and CIGs, and for some time 442s, all with 2+2 seating, tables etc. Before that were the CORs, also 2+2 seated, so historically Portsmouth has always had 2+2 seated "Intercity" trains, and it's only been recently when 3+2 seated Outer Suburban trains have been put on the route. As is mentioned in the report, Southern and South Eastern use 2+2 seated Electrostars on similar length routes (to the Sussex and Kent coasts), and whilst 3+2 seated trains are common on that sort of route north of the Thames, in most cases alternative Intercity service are available, at least for the bulk of the journey.
Also, I think TOCs are beginning to realise that 3+2 seating isn't popular on any services, with people often choosing to stand rarther than squashing on the middle seat between two people (and it's not just fat people who have a problem, what about the poor person who is squashed between two of them).
Since the 442s are unlikely to come back to SWT, and therefore the 444s are unlikely to return to Portsmouth, perhaps a reasonable compromise would be to refit a dedicated fleet of 450s with 2+2 seating and tables, like the 350s used on the WCML )). By the way, 365s doing London to Kings Lynn and Peterborough also have 2+2 seating, well 3 out of 5 isn't bad.

 

[AlexS]

The 365s are 2+2 seated.

The 166s are a poorly designed 1 fits all solution to getting rid of loco hauled stock on both suburban and longer distance services.

4 VEP seats, I propose to the jury, are far more comfortable than 450s.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

By the way, 365s doing London to Kings Lynn and Peterborough also have 2+2 seating, well 3 out of 5 isn't bad.

Sorry about that, obviously one of the key published sources for this sort of detail has got it wrong!!

I wouldn't know from my own experience, I only ever travel in First Class and don't care to linger too long to observe the condition of the great unwashed and their seating in Standard. Whatever it is, it's far too good for them. You can cram far more people onto a wooden bench and after sitting on one for a while most people are more than happy to stand up.

First Class should, of course, always be 2+1 but the 2+2s are reasonably acceptable; at least it means that every seat has another next to it for a briefcase, newspaper, coat or luggage.

Also on the Great Eastern, you'll find that it's mainly 321s that do Harwich and Ipswich runs with the 360s on the Clacton runs.

Not when I've travelled on them but that does tend to be at weekends.

Also, I think TOCs are beginning to realise that 3+2 seating isn't popular on any services, with people often choosing to stand rarther than squashing on the middle seat between two people (and it's not just fat people who have a problem, what about the poor person who is squashed between two of them).

TOCs have known that all along, but when the government and passengers complain about people having to stand up, it's the easy way of providing additional seats. Anyway, it's not so long ago that local trains were 6 across the carriage.

 

[KeithP]

... Anyway, it's not so long ago that local trains were 6 across the carriage.

Oh, but the report is focused on Intercity trains between the cities of London and Portsmouth.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Oh, but the report is focused on Intercity trains between the cities of London and Portsmouth.

London-Portsmouth was never part of the BR InterCity network. The only InterCity trains Portsmouth ever saw were Cross-Country services.

 

[Oracle]

Wasn't there are Class 50 + stock service to Pompey once?

I used to use the 442s up from Havant to Waterloo, having travelled from Swanwick. The buffet staff were marvellous, and a nice coffee or two and a Danish made the journey very pleasant...better than Swanwick to Central and up. Which reminds that there are punters up from Fratton and Havant apart from the city ones. I wonder whether they would be better off going Southern?

 

[class 313]

319/4s that do Bedford/Brighton are a mix of 3+2 and 2+2. But IIRC 350s are 2+2 with full sized tables. IMO London - Portsmouth would be better of having 450s that have 350 style interiors.

 

[devon_metro]

What happens when a portsmouth mod gets on a commuter route?

I think Portsmouth should get more 444s and SWT should bring back a handful of 442s for Weymouth trains.

 

[Tom]

A handful? No point bringing back say 7 442s, 1 would be required for maintenance, so 6 available ... if say one set of 2 ran every hour, that would mean you'd get 3 442, 3 444, 3 442, 3 444, etc.

 

[class 313]

What happens when a portsmouth mod gets on a commuter route?

I think Portsmouth should get more 444s and SWT should bring back a handful of 442s for Weymouth trains.

It does the commuter route....

Much like when 319/4s are put on Metros and 319/3s are put on flyers.

 

[TheSlash]

It's not the fact that it's 3+2, it's that the seats are like covered surf boards. No good for having a snooze between Fratton and Woking {training centre}
Also you get bombarded with auto announcements

 

[Juniper Driver]

The 442's were no good for the Pompey route.IMHO.

I remember when they were down there.

442's have had their day on SWT.

 

[Oracle]

I used to love the 442s Waterloo-Havant, especially when I could get a seat in the buffer car, or "smokey car" as they then were. Nice to have a brekkie on the way up as well.

 

[paul1609]

Wasn't there are Class 50 + stock service to Pompey once?

I used to use the 442s up from Havant to Waterloo, having travelled from Swanwick. The buffet staff were marvellous, and a nice coffee or two and a Danish made the journey very pleasant...better than Swanwick to Central and up. Which reminds that there are punters up from Fratton and Havant apart from the city ones. I wonder whether they would be better off going Southern?

Have you seen the new Southern Service from Pompey come December?
From National Rail;

Depart: 10:16 Portsmouth & Southsea (PMS)
Arrive: 12:18 London Victoria (VIC)
Calling Points: 10:20 Fratton
10:30 Havant
10:41 Chichester
10:49 Barnham
11:16 Horsham (Set Down Only)

Travel By: Train
Retail Service ID: SN276701;HRH;SN276702
Train Company:
Southern service from Portsmouth & Southsea to London Victoria
Seating Class: Standard and First Class.
Cycle Policy: Train has a cycle policy.
Duration: 2:02

 

[Tom]

377s are hardly on-par with 442s

 

[paul1609]

I didnt rate the 442s on the Pompey Direct. Underpowered for the gradients 4 BEP/cIG Greyhounds were much more enjoyable imhx. However I do rate the 377s as better than any desiro. The coffees much better on the SN trolleys than SWT I dont expect to pay well over a quid for instant in 2007.

 

[class 313]

I didnt rate the 442s on the Pompey Direct. Underpowered for the gradients 4 BEP/cIG Greyhounds were much more enjoyable imhx. However I do rate the 377s as better than any desiro. The coffees much better on the SN trolleys than SWT I dont expect to pay well over a quid for instant in 2007.

I do prefer 377s myself over 450s. Specialy with 377/2s having dis classified/ex first class seats at either end of the train.

 

[Mojo]

We're having the same problems with our campaigns, but we've been having a lot more success of lately. The Council and campaigners kept meeting with FGW, but that gets you nowhere, because they are simply contractors of the department, and follow the department's line at midnight the night before. It's like talking to the binmen.

If you want to get anywhere, you need to persuade council & MPs to get in touch with the department. Thanks to the support of the Conservatives, we're organising a summit for the West of England partnership with the DfT. The way it works at the moment, the North have very skilled and highly paid political lobbyists, which is why government is making very good moves behind the scenes, part of which includes the movement of 12 trains northwards.

Shame that the Physical Environment scrutiny isn't webcast, as Dave Redgewell made a good statement there, but you can see one he did on Tuesday, and the one from the guy following him go to http://www.bristol.public-i.tv/site/#pp11066 and "Full Council" on the right, it's near the start, just after the stop button. Or at http://www.bristol.public-i.tv/asx/bristol16oct07_1_en_GB.asx at 43:20 (you may need to save to your computer and play - it will stream from web)

 

[TheSlash]

I didnt rate the 442s on the Pompey Direct. Underpowered for the gradients 4 BEP/cIG Greyhounds were much more enjoyable imhx.

So run a super fast
Portsmouth Harbour
Portsmouth & Southsea
Havant
Guildford
London Waterloo

 

[AndyM77]

Wasn't there are Class 50 + stock service to Pompey once?

Indeed

Taken way back sometime in the 80's on an old fashioned '110' camera by myself at the age of 8 (I think)

Class 50 & MK2 coaching stock

 

[Tom]

So run a super fast
Portsmouth Harbour
Portsmouth & Southsea
Havant
Guildford
London Waterloo

0050 MO London Waterloo - Portsmouth Harbour does that with one extra stop at Woking.

 

[5872]

I dont mind 450s at all. There just used for standing room for commuter use. Ive seen all 127 so Im not worried if they stay or go. But it would be a good idea for them to be used in peak hours not during the day.