Scottish Independence White Paper - Railways

[Trog]

Now we are getting into my area of expertise!

You do realise, I assume, that the RN has NEVER (with the exception of a number of vessels acquired from the US in WW2) procured foreign warships?

I don't think that is quite true as I believe the RN were very keen on acquiring warships built by the French, Dutch, Swedes, Spanish and Americans during the late 1700's and early 1800's.

 

[CuttingRemark]

If Scotland becomes independent then ships built on Clydeside are going to be just as "foreign" to Westminster as ships built in Slovakia.

I'm sure that the [RumpUK] MoD would give serious economic consideration to the merits of ships built in Slovakia in the same way as they did to aircraft-carriers without aircraft. They're not paid to think about things like geography, joined-up stuff or even [shudder] cultural identity.

 

[ainsworth74]

No they're not but if they're going to procure ships from a foreign yard it has to be an open competition. That means that the Clyde shipyards would be up against the likes of Germany and France both of which have a range of very high quality warships.

 

[tbtc]

I'm sure that the [RumpUK] MoD would give serious economic consideration to the merits of ships built in Slovakia in the same way as they did to aircraft-carriers without aircraft. They're not paid to think about things like geography, joined-up stuff or even [shudder] cultural identity.

The point is that, post independence, Scotland becomes just as "foreign" to Westminster as Slovakia does. So the idea of maintaining orders on Clydeside (or giving lucrative refurbishment contracts to Rosyth) can probably be forgotten about, as far as big Westminster orders goes.

Scotland will have its own armed forces, of course, and a lot of pressure to keep RAF bases open, but I can't see them ordering the kind of grandiose "flagship" projects that the current MOD like to go for.

 

[HSTEd]

The Scottish 'military' would end up comparable in size to the Irish one.

It couldn't keep even a fraction of the current military facilities in Scotland open.

 

[danielnez1]

Spain for one won't make it easy (see the Spanish PM's comments over Scottish EU membership today) as they are worried about the precedent potentially set for Catalonia.

I have a feeling that France may also have objections giving the nationalist movements in Brittany and Corsica.

 

[reb0118]

If Scotland becomes independent then ships built on Clydeside are going to be just as "foreign" to Westminster as ships built in Slovakia.

I have a Czechoslovakian naval officers uniform (a wee bit tight fitting to be sure now though) which I used to wear of an evening. I had quite a few successes with gullible Deirdre Barlow types in various wine bars up & down the country!

 

[Morgsie]

Scotland will have to start the EU accession process if it becomes independent which has been said from Brussels and it sets a bad precedent because other's might follow. I don't know how to word this but the issue over Schengen

 

[thenorthern]

Back to the railways what do people think will happen to the rail services if Scotland does succeed from the United Kingdom?

 

[danielnez1]

Also, will they be able to use the BR double arrow for signs etc.?

 

[Morgsie]

Back to the railways what do people think will happen to the rail services if Scotland does succeed from the United Kingdom?

Border checks if Scotland becomes part of Schengen, highly likely

 

[47802]

I imagine it will be broadly similar to what it is now, in any case maybe we should just wait and see what happens in the vote

 

[thenorthern]

Also, will they be able to use the BR double arrow for signs etc.?

Doubt it they would probably use the current Scotrail logo instead I think.

 

[DownSouth]

But if secession means losing ownership of UK entities such as Network Rail then, logically, the UK's debts must remain with the UK. I can't imagine the Westminster government agreeing to that.

But if a post-secession Scotland does want to take ownership of current UK assets (such as UK-owned rail infrastructure located within Scottish borders) they will have to buy them from the UK by either stumping up the finances (which would lead to the a question of how to value said assets) or agreeing to take on a fair portion of the associated liabilities.

I suppose they could opt to simply pay the necessary costs to lease the rail infrastructure from NR.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Also, will they be able to use the BR double arrow for signs etc.?

I'd imagine that an independant Scotland probably would end up using still but with a blue background instaed of a red one (so to blend in with their flag of St. Andrew).

 

[Wolfie]

I'm sure that the [RumpUK] MoD would give serious economic consideration to the merits of ships built in Slovakia in the same way as they did to aircraft-carriers without aircraft. They're not paid to think about things like geography, joined-up stuff or even [shudder] cultural identity.

Really?

http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm66/6697/6697.asp

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A.../**http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file33168.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Industrial_Strategy

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I suppose they could opt to simply pay the necessary costs to lease the rail infrastructure from NR.

What is likely is that a Scottish rail authority, with its own infrastructure manager and regulator, will want to impose its own set of access charges.
That will be an unwelcome complication for all the cross-border traffic like coal and nuclear flasks, as well as passenger trains.

So that's two sets of fares manuals, timetables, web sites, performance regimes, certification bodies etc.
Without question it will add cost and complexity.

 

[starrymarkb]

I'd imagine that an independant Scotland probably would end up using still but with a blue background instaed of a red one (so to blend in with their flag of St. Andrew).

I suspect they'd just use the Scotrail Logo, much like NI doesn't use the double arrow.

Would they even remain part of the National rail ticketing or would it be international with CIV provision?

How does international ticketing work on the continent/Island of Ireland

 

[HSTEd]

There will be no nuclear flasks since Torness and Hunterston B will likely be shut down as rapidly as possible at independence as the SNP tries to follow Germany into the high price power debacle.

 

[johnnychips]

How are the waste fuel rods from Dounreay planned to be removed to Sellafield in 2014/15? (Source: Wikipedia)

 

[PermitToTravel]

So that's two sets of fares manuals, timetables, web sites, performance regimes, certification bodies etc.
Without question it will add cost and complexity.

This would not be a problem first realised in Scotland. There are EU directives for interoperability between the railways of member states, covering all of the things that you mentioned, and then some.

The only way that I can see this becoming problematic (apart from the politics e.g. franchising et al) is border control - if Scotland leaves the CTA and joins the Schengen zone without the UK doing so, the English-Scottish border will become an external border of the Schengen zone, and Scotland will be bound to secure it.
Of course, there are already trains between the Schengen zone and the outside. This is still not a unique problem.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

This would not be a problem first realised in Scotland. There are EU directives for interoperability between the railways of member states, covering all of the things that you mentioned, and then some.

The only way that I can see this becoming problematic (apart from the politics e.g. franchising et al) is border control - if Scotland leaves the CTA and joins the Schengen zone without the UK doing so, the English-Scottish border will become an external border of the Schengen zone, and Scotland will be bound to secure it.
Of course, there are already trains between the Schengen zone and the outside. This is still not a unique problem.

If that happens, then that'll be my annual day trip to Gretna straight into the buffers.

 

[HSTEd]

How are the waste fuel rods from Dounreay planned to be removed to Sellafield in 2014/15? (Source: Wikipedia)

I believe it is rail moves at the moment but people were complaining so they pull one of the old MOX freighters from storage for the duty.

 

[Monty]

How are the waste fuel rods from Dounreay planned to be removed to Sellafield in 2014/15? (Source: Wikipedia)

Wouldn't that be Scotland's problem if a Yes vote was to happen?

 

[DownSouth]

Wouldn't that be Scotland's problem if a Yes vote was to happen?

They could insist that the power station is property of the UK.

 

[Nym]

They could insist that the power station is property of the UK.

Then we can counter-claim that the Oil and Wood reserves of Scotland are also property of the UK...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This would not be a problem first realised in Scotland. There are EU directives for interoperability between the railways of member states, covering all of the things that you mentioned, and then some.

You mean like the Brussels-Amsterdam Fyra trains?
That turned out well didn't it?
One country refused to accept the trains, leaving the other with a massive problem.
Also Brussels-Köln tickets on Thalys are not recognised on DB and vice versa.
EU cross-border traffic is not regulated domestically.
I'm not saying it will go like this, but the potential is there if the two governments and rail administrations let it.
The WCML and ECML are not (at the moment) subject to TSIs, and won't be having ERTMS for a fair while, so EU TSIs don't really apply.

 

[rechoss]

Wouldn't that be Scotland's problem if a Yes vote was to happen?

Scotland wouldn't become independent until 2016 in the event of a yes vote.

 

[HowardGWR]

You mean like the Brussels-Amsterdam Fyra trains?
That turned out well didn't it?
One country refused to accept the trains, leaving the other with a massive problem.
Also Brussels-Köln tickets on Thalys are not recognised on DB and vice versa.
EU cross-border traffic is not regulated domestically.
I'm not saying it will go like this, but the potential is there if the two governments and rail administrations let it.
The WCML and ECML are not (at the moment) subject to TSIs, and won't be having ERTMS for a fair while, so EU TSIs don't really apply.

Both countries rejected the Fyra and it had nothing to do with interoperability but simply crap trains provided by the Italian manufacturer (although Ansaldo-Breda is disputing that and everyone is counter suing everyone else!).

 

[Butts]

Scotland isnt a significant part of the UK probably 8 to 9% of GDP, the London economy is currently growing at over 3%. Loss of Scotland is unlikely to change peoples perceptions about the EU

Well thats another 10,000 Yes votes courtesy of "The Garden of England":roll: