Class 700's and 319's

[rm88]

I cant find much info on this anywhere.
How many class 700's have been ordered?
How many 319's are going to Northern and when will they start arriving up here?
Will the 319's mean that rolling stock is cascaded or scrapped i.e. class 156's, 142's.

 

[Manchester77]

I cant find much info on this anywhere.
How many class 700's have been ordered?
How many 319's are going to Northern and when will they start arriving up here?
Will the 319's mean that rolling stock is cascaded or scrapped i.e. class 156's, 142's.

- 115, 8 & 12 car units have been ordered.
- From may 6 319s will be released from FCC by the 377/2s with more to follow when the 387s and eventually 700s start arriving on Thameslink.
- Cascaded, there aren't enough trains as it is without scrapping any they will be cascaded to strengthen and improve services.

 

[rm88]

So in May what route will the 319's be using, as only half of chat moss is electrified as things stand.
Plus There was no mention of 319's being used for the hourly service from Lime Street to Blackpool North.
It is all getting muddled up with FTP saying on their website that once Chorley route is electrified the Manc - Scotland routes will go back to their original route.

In 2016 there should be Blackpool to Manc Airport 319's
Liverpool to Stalybridge 319's
Liverpool to Blackpool 319's
Manc Airport to Scotland 350's

Hopefully FTP should order more 350's in the coming future if the Windermere branch and the Trans pennine route is electrified giving Northern a chance to use 319's on this route aswell.

 

[starrymarkb]

I'm assuming at least one 319 will be the testbed for the refurbishment.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Dont think anymore 350s will be ordered now as it is an old design, TPE only got some as a piggy back of a LM order which they made to allow them to work with their existing 350s.

 

[Class172]

Dont think anymore 350s will be ordered now as it is an old design, TPE only got some as a piggy back of a LM order which they made to allow them to work with their existing 350s.

That's how I understand the situation, with these 350s only getting build due to the required compatibility with the LM units.

 

[Manchester77]

So in May what route will the 319's be using, as only half of chat moss is electrified as things stand.
Plus There was no mention of 319's being used for the hourly service from Lime Street to Blackpool North.
It is all getting muddled up with FTP saying on their website that once Chorley route is electrified the Manc - Scotland routes will go back to their original route.
In 2016 there should be Blackpool to Manc Airport 319's
Liverpool to Stalybridge 319's
Liverpool to Blackpool 319's
Manc Airport to Scotland 350's
Hopefully FTP should order more 350's in the coming future if the Windermere branch and the Trans pennine route is electrified giving Northern a chance to use 319's on this route aswell.

- None as they are foreign units in this region so guards, drivers, depot staff and fitters will all need to be trained on how to work them.
- TPE is highly unlikely to use the 319s which are likely to almost all be needed by northern. TPE will probably either use 387s or Desiro 118mph

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm assuming at least one 319 will be the testbed for the refurbishment.

I cannot help feeling that refurbishment has been kinda overlooked. I reckon 319s will be needed soon enough that refurbishment will have to wait till class 700s have come in full flood and there are surplus (did I say that ?) 319s on Northern. The 387s might alleviate/speed-up that though. As for a testbad perhaps 321448 is the prototype ?.

 

[Class377/5]

The NW wires will require 13 units in Dec 14 and 24 units for Dec 15. Total of 37 units.

6x 319 will be freed in May 14 and with all the 387 fleet releasing another 29x 319 by May 15. A total of 35 units by mid 2015.

The first 700 should be in service early 2016 (although they are ahead right now) meaning by Dec 16 they will be enough 319s, even if every 387 transferred to GW by Dec 16.

 

[northwichcat]

How many 319's are going to Northern and when will they start arriving up here?

The first part of that is an unknown. Northern will initially receive some 4 car 319s.

However, Thames Valley may or may not receive 319s. The original plan was for those routes to have 319s until CP7 when likely new 5 car 110/125mph units would be ordered. However, some people are suggesting with the Thameslink delays Thames Valley might go straight for the new trains.

It is also unknown whether all 319s will remain in 4 car formation. The Bolton corridor in particular already sees some busy 4 car local services at peak times, so keeping them 4 car and using them on the Bolton corridor means either the cascaded trains will be overcrowded with very little growth or a platform extension program will have to be undertaken (which isn't included in Network Rail's CP5 plans.) Porterbrook have unveiled an option to reform 319s in to 3 car trains with corridor connectors, which would then work on the Bolton corridor. However, that obviously means some carriages go to waste and the 319 fleet don't stretch as far.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The NW wires will require 13 units in Dec 14 and 24 units for Dec 15. Total of 37 units.

6x 319 will be freed in May 14 and with all the 387 fleet releasing another 29x 319 by May 15. A total of 35 units by mid 2015.

Out of interest does that calculation allow for Liverpool-Victoria stoppers going half-hourly all day and also Stalybridge-Manchester being done as an extension of Chat Moss electrification opposed to stage 1 of North TPE electrification?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

None of this is confirmed (except the numbers of trains being cascaded out of TSGN).
GW is also a contender for 319s in 2016, and I've even seen some reference to SWT taking some in their fleet expansion.
There are threads on cascades/Northern needs already:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89934
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92859

 

[Manchester77]

I've also seen reference to SE taking some one but this (and iirc the SWT theory) were before SWT put out to tender new inner suburban EMUs and the TSGN ITT which confirmed some 377s would go to SE

 

[northwichcat]

Will the 319's mean that rolling stock is cascaded or scrapped i.e. class 156's, 142's.

In the next few years no DMUs are likely to be scrapped. The Northern Hub proposes extra and extended diesel services such as Victoria-Denton-Stockport-Greenbank and Leeds-Bradford-Warrington-Chester, in addition to the more obvious services using the re-opened Todmordern curve and the new Ordsall Chord. Other operators like EMT are likely to want any extra carriages which become spare.

Longer term some DMUs are likely to be scrapped. Angel Trains want to get rid of their 142s first, while Porterbrook want to get rid of their 153s first. The 156s will remain in service for the forseeable future.

 

[anthony263]

The GW franchise could still get a small batch of class 319's for use around Bristol on local services to Cardiff, Bath & Swansea as well as peak hour capacity busters between Bristol Parkway and Bristol TM serving the local stations between the two.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm intrigued that the 153s are going first. I concede that they're regarded by many as the 'lesser' of the Sprinters, but I assumed the single-car utility would keep them around longer than a lot of the 2-car units. Perhaps capacity is now such that adding extra cars here and there is no longer sufficient?

I'm still none the wiser having read this thread about what services are expected to be operational and when using EMUs in Northern, but presumably this is still up in the air?

 

[MK Tom]

- 115, 8 & 12 car units have been ordered.
- From may 6 319s will be released from FCC by the 377/2s with more to follow when the 387s and eventually 700s start arriving on Thameslink.
- Cascaded, there aren't enough trains as it is without scrapping any they will be cascaded to strengthen and improve services.

Wu-wu-wu-wu-wait... if six 377/2s are transferring to FCC, will that impact on Southern's WCML services? Seeing as FCC already have two 377/2s...

 

[Voyager 2093]

Probably some 319s heading the other way maybe?

 

[Fincra5]

Believe the 377/7's (?) will cover these lost units.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm intrigued that the 153s are going first. I concede that they're regarded by many as the 'lesser' of the Sprinters, but I assumed the single-car utility would keep them around longer than a lot of the 2-car units. Perhaps capacity is now such that adding extra cars here and there is no longer sufficient?

I'm still none the wiser having read this thread about what services are expected to be operational and when using EMUs in Northern, but presumably this is still up in the air?

The problem with single-cars like 153s is that if you have to install an accessible toilet and so on to meet the post-2020 requirements, then you end up losing so much capacity that the trains are no longer much use.

The possibility of reforming them back to 155s has been mooted as only one large loo would be needed in each pair, but some say there are issues with the structural integrity of the bodyshells. There does appear to be a 'sag' developing on them, but I've not heard anything confirming this particular problem so it could be an optical illusion due to the cars having lots of small windows on a long bodyshell.

 

[samuelmorris]

I was under the impression this 'cascade' is the reason the 377/7s were ordered in the first place? Or is there another reason for the order as well?

61653: Thanks for clearing that up, I'd forgotten about the DDA impacts on the 153s - that seems fair. The bodyshell sag issue is quite alarming, if true I can certainly understand why they'd be considered for replacement, but would that not also be affecting the remaining 155s?

 

[Manchester77]

Wu-wu-wu-wu-wait... if six 377/2s are transferring to FCC, will that impact on Southern's WCML services? Seeing as FCC already have two 377/2s...

As others have mentioned southern will use the 377/7s (377/6s but with AC pickup)

 

[Class377/5]

Out of interest does that calculation allow for Liverpool-Victoria stoppers going half-hourly all day and also Stalybridge-Manchester being done as an extension of Chat Moss electrification opposed to stage 1 of North TPE electrification?

The figures were given to me by the DfT for phases 2 and 3.

Wu-wu-wu-wu-wait... if six 377/2s are transferring to FCC, will that impact on Southern's WCML services? Seeing as FCC already have two 377/2s...

They have 3, 377207/211/212.

I was under the impression this 'cascade' is the reason the 377/7s were ordered in the first place? Or is there another reason for the order as well?

The 377/7 were ordered to allow train lengthening on Southern's WCML.

However Modern Railways states "in the May 2014 timetable, three of the hourly series will be covered by a five-car Class 377/7, with the other working an eight-car using Southern's existing dual-voltage units".

In other works out of the 14 dual voltage 377's Southern will have from May 2014 (6x 377/2 and 8x 377/7) it actually only needs five plus spares. That leaves around 8 dual voltage unit it isn't using fully.

Unless its connected with doing 2tph on the WCML services later on in 2014-onwards.....

 

[The Ham]

It is also unknown whether all 319s will remain in 4 car formation. The Bolton corridor in particular already sees some busy 4 car local services at peak times, so keeping them 4 car and using them on the Bolton corridor means either the cascaded trains will be overcrowded with very little growth or a platform extension program will have to be undertaken (which isn't included in Network Rail's CP5 plans.) Porterbrook have unveiled an option to reform 319s in to 3 car trains with corridor connectors, which would then work on the Bolton corridor. However, that obviously means some carriages go to waste and the 319 fleet don't stretch as far.

That doesn't mean that in the short term the services couldn't be run with 4 coach sets and then in due course (i.e. once the 319's are all released from FCC) that they could then be shorterned to enable 3/6 coach sets (possibly when there are enough EMU's to enable some spare coaches to be sat idel).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The figures were given to me by the DfT for phases 2 and 3.

NW Phase 3 (Blackpool) is supposed to be May 2016, Phase 4 (Bolton route and Stalybridge) Dec 2016.
Phase 3 won't need more than 2-3 extra units. The only new EMU service will be Liverpool-Blackpool.
(Unless they rejig the timetable to route Manchester-Blackpool via Wigan).
Some of the 319s could also go to Manchester South routes.

 

[anthony263]

61653: Thanks for clearing that up, I'd forgotten about the DDA impacts on the 153s - that seems fair. The bodyshell sag issue is quite alarming, if true I can certainly understand why they'd be considered for replacement, but would that not also be affecting the remaining 155s?

I admit some of the bodysag issue's doesnt look good although as with many classes some units are in far better condition than others. I have seen one ATW and one FGW class 153 which dont seem to be suffering from any body sag so perhaps these could be saved.

There does not seem to be a problem with bodysag on the class 155's

 

[Class377/5]

NW Phase 3 (Blackpool) is supposed to be May 2016, Phase 4 (Bolton route and Stalybridge) Dec 2016.
Phase 3 won't need more than 2-3 extra units. The only new EMU service will be Liverpool-Blackpool.
(Unless they rejig the timetable to route Manchester-Blackpool via Wigan).
Some of the 319s could also go to Manchester South routes.

The notes I've got include Blackpool and the Bolton route in phase 3 hence the 24 units.

 

[northwichcat]

I was under the impression this 'cascade' is the reason the 377/7s were ordered in the first place? Or is there another reason for the order as well?

Southern have a franchise commitment to introduce extra capacity in the December 13 timetable change, which would utilise the 377s subleased to FCC. However, as FCC don't have replacement stock and it's a franchise commitment (opposed to an additional like Northern running services over the Todmorden curve) it can't be put back easily so additional EMUs have been ordered.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

61653: Thanks for clearing that up, I'd forgotten about the DDA impacts on the 153s - that seems fair. The bodyshell sag issue is quite alarming, if true I can certainly understand why they'd be considered for replacement, but would that not also be affecting the remaining 155s?

You have to note Porterbrook have unveiled ambitious refurbishment options which include giving 319s corridor connectors and making 143s, 144s and 150s compliant. However, they have dismissed doing anything with the 153s when reforming them in to 2 car sets or making them centre cars for 156s would seem more cost-effective than making 143s and 144s complaint if it was use the issue with 153s being single carriage.

The options to make the 143s and 144s complaint would reduce the capacity to around 80 seats on the 2 car sets, so I imagine Porterbrook see them as potential class 153 replacements on some routes in the short term (they won't stretch fare enough to cover all 153 services or be suitable for some.)

 

[philjo]

FCC were giving out leaflets at Blackfriars this morning.

They are showing off a full size mockup of the new Thameslink units at Excel on 29 January 2pm-8pm. (Free entry)

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/node/106

 

[Class377/5]

FCC were giving out leaflets at Blackfriars this morning.

They are showing off a full size mockup of the new Thameslink units at Excel on 29 January 2pm-8pm. (Free entry)

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/node/106

There is a different thread for the Class 700 and the mock up is being discussed on there.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92632

 

[Haydn1971]

Porterbrook have unveiled an option to reform 319s in to 3 car trains with corridor connectors, which would then work on the Bolton corridor. However, that obviously means some carriages go to waste and the 319 fleet don't stretch as far.

I've seen the Porterbrook brochure, pretty front panel and tidied up interiors all sound great news, but given the greater degree of flexibility that is needed in the north would it be possible to take the fourth carriage out of some units and inserting into a four car unit to give a mix of 3, 4, 5 & 3+3 car units to service the needs of different routes ?