TOCs 'maintaining' other's TOCs trains.

[Qwerty133]

London midland 'maintain' XC Turbostars, whenever I've been on a London Midland DMU they have been in good condition, however XC 170s often have light coverings missing, expired emergency lighting and other minor faults, including tables missing for a number of weeks.
They also seem to break down a lot more often including this morning before 7AM. How do LM get away with treating there own units, more importantly than XC units? Are they other operators (not manufactures), that maintain other operators units? if so do they treat there own units more importantly than the other operators?

 

[Tubeboy]

No doubt LM units get priority. The XC 170s do need a deep clean, they are a bit dirty.

 

[TheEdge]

I believe Crown Point and GA will do overnight prep, cleaning and maintenance on EMT 158s that finish their day in Norwich. I think its the GA side of the agreement that see us able to use the EMT units on a few GA services.

 

[Qwerty133]

I would personally like to see a clause in the contact that states if LM can not provide the correct amount of XC units until at least 12:00 on any given day except in extraordinary circumstances (smashed windscreen, strikes, etc) that XC are given use of an LM unit. I feel that this would encourage LM to put the same amount of effort into maintaining XC units as their own, as they would be the ones suffering when they breakdown at 6am on a Monday morning, which is likely to be down to poor maintenance.

 

[507 001]

No doubt LM units get priority. The XC 170s do need a deep clean, they are a bit dirty.

It's not just there 170s that need a deep clean, their voyagers are filthy too.

Both VT's and XC's voyagers are maintained at Central Rivers, although that's a bombardier depot as opposed to a TOC depot

 

[W230]

I believe Southern do at least some maintainence of the FCC 377s at Selhurst. There's a 12 car ECS there from Bedford on a Friday evening anyway.

 

[jopsuk]

The stabling and train-wash sidings at Cambridge seem to be shared between FCC & GA- no idea how that's run.

 

[O L Leigh]

London midland 'maintain' XC Turbostars, whenever I've been on a London Midland DMU they have been in good condition, however XC 170s often have light coverings missing, expired emergency lighting and other minor faults, including tables missing for a number of weeks.

It's more of a function of the different uses that the two fleets get. LM Cl170s are effectively short to medium distance commuter units whereas XC Cl170s are used on longer runs. The XC units get more internal wear and tear because they generally carry more items of luggage which are usually wedged tightly into the overhead racks, damaging the ceiling panels and dislodging light diffusers. By contrast, the LM units don't get the same amount of wear and tear.

I would dispute the claim that there are missing tables, though. I certainly am not aware of any missing fixed tables. However, items like these are not routinely held in stock by any depot.

They also seem to break down a lot more often including this morning before 7AM.

One failed unit does not indicate a trend.

I have to say that the fleet is generally very reliable. What knocks them out is usually things like broken windscreens and wipers due to bird strikes (always more devastating at 100mph between Cheltenham and Bromsgrove than it is pootling along the Cannock Chase line at 50mph) and failure of in-cab equipment such as GSM-R.

How do LM get away with treating there own units, more importantly than XC units? Are they other operators (not manufactures), that maintain other operators units? if so do they treat there own units more importantly than the other operators?

I have a privileged position of having seen inside and out of both fleets and I honestly have to say that I don't see it that way. Yes the care that Tyseley are giving to the XC fleet is far from perfect, but it doesn't strike me that there is a two-tier system in operation. Certainly the LM units are no less draughty, rattly or unpleasant than the XC fleet inside the cabs.

O L Leigh

 

[Lockwood]

There's FGW 158s that sleep at Fratton, not sure if any traincare happens to them while they're asleep.

 

[PHILIPE]

Isn't Tyseley a Traincare owned Depot and neither LM nor XC so if so there should be no difference in standard of maintenance.

 

[Qwerty133]

It's more of a function of the different uses that the two fleets get. LM Cl170s are effectively short to medium distance commuter units whereas XC Cl170s are used on longer runs. The XC units get more internal wear and tear because they generally carry more items of luggage which are usually wedged tightly into the overhead racks, damaging the ceiling panels and dislodging light diffusers. By contrast, the LM units don't get the same amount of wear and tear.

I would dispute the claim that there are missing tables, though. I certainly am not aware of any missing fixed tables. However, items like these are not routinely held in stock by any depot.



One failed unit does not indicate a trend.

I have to say that the fleet is generally very reliable. What knocks them out is usually things like broken windscreens and wipers due to bird strikes (always more devastating at 100mph between Cheltenham and Bromsgrove than it is pootling along the Cannock Chase line at 50mph) and failure of in-cab equipment such as GSM-R.



I have a privileged position of having seen inside and out of both fleets and I honestly have to say that I don't see it that way. Yes the care that Tyseley are giving to the XC fleet is far from perfect, but it doesn't strike me that there is a two-tier system in operation. Certainly the LM units are no less draughty, rattly or unpleasant than the XC fleet inside the cabs.

O L Leigh

1. one unit had the same light coverings missing all week
2. Not aware of any tables currently missing but 170115 had one missing for over a month a few months back
3. Just had a look on RTT and it looks as though I was being polite about broken down before 7am, in fact it looks as though Tyseley were unable to provide a unit for 5G70, causing the 06:22 to Standsted to use the unit for the 06:52 Leicester, which was cancelled. (why does it not surprise me that XC forgot about passengers from Hinckley Narborough and South Wigston!).

 

[O L Leigh]

Have you been auditing the LM fleet too, or just the XC one?

I would personally like to see a clause in the contact that states if LM can not provide the correct amount of XC units until at least 12:00 on any given day except in extraordinary circumstances (smashed windscreen, strikes, etc) that XC are given use of an LM unit. I feel that this would encourage LM to put the same amount of effort into maintaining XC units as their own, as they would be the ones suffering when they breakdown at 6am on a Monday morning, which is likely to be down to poor maintenance.

So much oversimplification.

Units that fail prep in the morning may have nothing to do with poor maintenance. Any component could fail at any time which would prevent the unit entering traffic.

The problem is that you can't simply "step up" units to fill the gap because they do not come off Tyseley individually but often in formations of two or three units at a time that divide on arrival at New Street to form services to various different destinations. Indeed, unless the failed unit is at the rear of the formation it still has to come to New Street with the good sets and then go back to Tyseley individually for attention. Otherwise you're doing a lot of shunting at the depot which simply delays ALL empty trains trying to get out. About the only one that comes off individually is the standby set that stables on the through siding, and until it does there will always be one unit short in the event of a failure.

Cancelling the 0652 Leicester is not a big issue because the stops it makes are duplicated by the 0722 Stansted. What would you have XC do? Drop one train out of a section of route with a 30 minute frequency leaving a 1 hour gap in the service or drop it out of a section of route with a 1 hour frequency leaving a 2 hour gap in the service?

O L Leigh

 

[David Barrett]

As I recall one of the provisions in the Legslation leading up to Privatisation was that depot facilities should be open to all comers although in practice the attention given to rolling stock of another operator often went through some sort of contractual proceedure first. We used to carry out some Fuelling and A Exams/Minor Repairs for Ferightliner at E.W.S. but it was not without antagonism from some staff.

 

[D1009]

As far as I am aware XC don't do any maintenance themselves, it's all contracted out, either to Bombardier or other depots.

 

[LowLevel]

The XC 170s do tend to run about with a few cosmetic defects (and aren't exactly immune to the odd dying swan moment with things like drivers seats failing plus the odd mechanical bugbear) but as far as I can see do no worse really than the rest of the ex Central fleets (the Northern and EMT 158s for example seem prone to mechanical failure far more regularly). The LM 170s live a pretty easy life with plenty of units sat around at TS (although I understand trundling at low speeds doesn't necessarily do much good because they tend to sit at the point they're at max revs before the transmission change a lot and therefore tend to overheat).

 

[fgwrich]

Back to the original point of the thread for a moment.

FGW at Laira and Long Rock Depots do the servicing for XC HSTs and Voyagers.

LNWR Eastleigh (formally a EWS/DB Schenker depot) does work for DB, XC and some occasional work for GE/Freightliner.

ATW Cardiff Canton used to also do work for Wessex Trains as part of the old Wessex Trains / Wales & Borders split but this finished in the early days of FGW as er, the Canton maintained units had a slight problem with reliability (to put it lightly!)

 

[jopsuk]

Who runs the Wembley depot that the Caledonian sleepers go to during the day? I know full maintainence is done when the sets go to Inverness.

 

[swt_passenger]

LNWR is now part of Arriva though, so as far as XC work goes it isn't really the same situation as a TOC supporting a different TOC.

 

[1e10]

East Coast maintain CrossCountry HST sets at Neville Hill.

 

[455driver]

Back to the original point of the thread for a moment.

FGW at Laira and Long Rock Depots do the servicing for XC HSTs and Voyagers.

What sort of maintenance takes place at Laira on these trains?
The HSTs are maintained at Edinburger (hence the ECS a couple of weeks ago from Plymouth) and Voyagers are maintained at Central Shivers!

Putting fuel in them is not maintenance!

 

[PHILIPE]

Back to the original point of the thread for a moment.

FGW at Laira and Long Rock Depots do the servicing for XC HSTs and Voyagers.

LNWR Eastleigh (formally a EWS/DB Schenker depot) does work for DB, XC and some occasional work for GE/Freightliner.

ATW Cardiff Canton used to also do work for Wessex Trains as part of the old Wessex Trains / Wales & Borders split but this finished in the early days of FGW as er, the Canton maintained units had a slight problem with reliability (to put it lightly!)

Canton have a FGW 158/9 overnight for servicing but not for maintance and also XC 170s Saturday into Sunday

 

[Bonemaster]

No doubt LM units get priority. The XC 170s do need a deep clean, they are a bit dirty.

Possibly down to contractual arrangements, London Midland do what they see fit too with their own fleet and with the XC fleet do what they are paid to do.

 

[Class377/5]

I believe Southern do at least some maintainence of the FCC 377s at Selhurst. There's a 12 car ECS there from Bedford on a Friday evening anyway.

That's Southern's 377/2 on loan to FCC coming home for maintenance. They come back on a Monday morning. The 377/5 fleet is maintained at Bedford under lease from Southern.

 

[DarloRich]

I would personally like to see a clause in the contact that states if LM can not provide the correct amount of XC units until at least 12:00 on any given day except in extraordinary circumstances (smashed windscreen, strikes, etc) that XC are given use of an LM unit. I feel that this would encourage LM to put the same amount of effort into maintaining XC units as their own, as they would be the ones suffering when they breakdown at 6am on a Monday morning, which is likely to be down to poor maintenance.

yes - because if you are LM you are going to sign up to such a contract aren't you?

LM are in the position of power. XC need the use of their facilities more than LM need to grant access to their facilities! I bet it is a nice little earner!

As for the state of the XC trains well i am sure LM will do exactly what the contract says. If it says fill the washers and empty the toilets then that is what they will do. They wont fix lights or replace tables if the contract doesn't mandate that. Why would you?

 

[PHILIPE]

Back to the original point of the thread for a moment.

FGW at Laira and Long Rock Depots do the servicing for XC HSTs and Voyagers.

LNWR Eastleigh (formally a EWS/DB Schenker depot) does work for DB, XC and some occasional work for GE/Freightliner.

ATW Cardiff Canton used to also do work for Wessex Trains as part of the old Wessex Trains / Wales & Borders split but this finished in the early days of FGW as er, the Canton maintained units had a slight problem with reliability (to put it lightly!)

The maintenance was no better in the early days at St Philips Marsh to where they moved immediately on FGW taking on the franchise in December 2006. There were no facilities, additional staff or suitable accomodation in place at the outset which resulted in very poor availability. It took some time to overcome.

 

[jamieP]

East Coast maintain CrossCountry HST sets at Neville Hill.

And HT 180 at Bounds Green depot.

 

[455driver]

East Coast maintain CrossCountry HST sets at Neville Hill.

Since when have EC had a depot at Neville Hill, there is an EMT depot there though.

The HSTs are maintained by EC at Haymarket.

 

[ainsworth74]

And HT 180 at Bounds Green depot.

Maintenance of HT 180s is handled by Old Oak over in FGW land. The 180s may end up stabling at Bounds Green but their maintenance is Old Oak.

Since when have EC had a depot at Neville Hill, there is an EMT depot there though.

Indeed! There's a rather large 'East Midlands Trains' sign on one of the buildings as you go by!

 

[455driver]

I suppose that because a train is at the depot then it must be maintained there!

 

[CC 72100]

The HSTs are maintained by EC at Haymarket.

How long has this been going on? Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, weren't they maintained at Neville Hill (EMT) until a few years back, before the switch up to Edinburgh?