Immigration - The thoughts of someone from abroad

[Giugiaro]

Good Evening everyone.

I decided to do this thread to know what the forum folks think about immigration in a different way. Let's start.

Immigration normally has a negative connotation to it. Normally people think of immigration as a bunch of people coming from other places just to fill more space in your country and bring all sorts of problems. From violence to national financial burdens, having to face this bunch that clearly don't know well how to speak the local language and try to force their culture and fancy manners to their place of work. Some even gather all around the same spot, like their trying to conquer that block for their own, puny nation. Some come because their country disposed of them. Others come because they're too lazy to live in a difficult country and want to benefit from the advantages of being an immigrant in a wealthy country.

Now, what I wrote above is just the worst though that immigration arouses in some people. It is not my way of thinking about the problem, but it's actually what I fear I will be treated as, if I ever decide to go abroad.

I always wanted to go abroad. Not because of some problem with my country or because I find it easier to be a tax-free citizen while everyone around me pays for me to stay in the new country.
I want to go abroad because I always wanted to experience the excitement of speaking a whole different language, have to adapt myself to a new reality, widen my possibilities to work and study and be able to do something useful to the others around me. I always loved every bit of the time I spent in another country or with people of other nations and have to speak one, two, three or four different languages while making myself like one from the place. I love to see the faces of people when they learn that I'm not from their country when I put up a good act and get to speak and even cooperate with them like the borders between nations never existed before.

I always, since very little, said I would one day move abroad to work. I even tried to do so this year without much luck, but I definitively will do an Erasmus if I get to it. Also, I have projects that I want to do abroad, so either my folks like it or not, once I get the chance I'm flying away.

But here's the big issue. Either I want to avoid it or not, my country, Portugal, is going through a tough situation. That means that a lot of people are leaving the country trying to find a better place to live and this brings up a huge problem.
If I'm going abroad, I have to deal with the fact that I'm walking side-by-side with thousands of other nationals that aren't moving abroad because they want, but because they feel like they have no choice. And, of course, once I present myself in a new country there is no way for me to avoid being assumed as one of those that "run away" from the country, when I did so because I enthusiastically wanted to.

And when too many people move away from their country, there's a possibility they can be sent back because of serious reasons and what I fear is that I can be sent back as well, regardless of what my intentions and expectations where.

Also, there are countries that have a very good relationship with their immigrants, but there are others that seem quite charming but are kind of afraid of people from abroad and children of people from abroad like... Japan. The famous Gaijin issue.


I guess, by now, you understood the point, so I'm moving now to questions.

• 
  What are your feelings about immigrants?
  What good and bad experiences you had with them?
  What you would expect of someone coming from abroad?
  What do you consider an immigrant should have as qualities?
  Do you mind the cultural differences? Or would you be really interested on learning about them?

I'm leaving this for you now. Thank you for your attention.

 

[Trog]

If you come here and are willing to do a fair days work for a fair days pay. Make a visible effort to fit in by learning the language, and behave in a way that fits with local society. I don't think you will have any real problems.

It is people who come here and demand to carry on living in the same way as they did back home regardless of British Law and custom, or who make no effort to support themselves by working who tend to annoy.

Were you to come here and join the railway you would only be adding another layer to a workforce that already reads like a history of the worlds problems since the war. Poles and Italians at the end of WW2, the Irish leaving the economic stagnation of their home island, followed by West Indians, Ugandan Asians, Vietnamese boat people etc etc.
You name it, they came and British Rail employed them, and made a rather good job of turning them into railwaymen first and whatever they were before second. One thing that was noticeable though was that they all seemed to swear in English, even when the rest of the conversation was not.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I often get shot down for this but I have no problem with immigrants whatsoever. All this bull**** about 'taking jobs off of decent people' or 'getting benefits over us' or 'taking over the country' is simply not true.

 

[Masbroughlad]

I think immigration is a brilliant thing. It is great to live in such a vibrant, mixed, generally welcoming nation.

 

[flymo]

I left UK on April 17, 1994 to move to Hong Kong for work and have been there ever since. I do still come back to the UK for holidays, such as a week ago until this Thursday coming. I remember that Saturday morning in 1994 leaving my home land with trepidation then arriving in a foreign country where English was a second language and the written word indecipherable. Fast forward almost 20 years and I now think of Hong Kong as home and Britain as a foreign land. When I moved to HK it was still a British colony and as such there was still a fair bit of 'Britishness' about it which I guess kind of softened the blow so to speak but it was all very new and very strange.

I can now speak a fair bit of Cantonese, read a surprising amount of Chinese, been married to a Filipina for 17 years, have friends from some nations I had never even heard of years ago and even had drinks with a Sunderland fan . Never thought I would have ever done these when I left school in 1982 but there you are.

My advice to you Giugiaro would be, if you get the chance to move overseas then go for it. I think I have benefited hugely from my overseas life and have never looked back. It may seem difficult and a little daunting at first but the rewards outweigh the problems in my eyes.

It is a huge world out there and, with a few exceptions, it is all worth experiencing.

 

[90sWereBetter]

I have no problem with immigration whatsoever, and I'm really not bothered about it. Don't believe the media when they say X amount of Bulgarians/Romanians will be "flooding into the country" next year. The real amount will be far lower than that. Just scaremongering rubbish.

Besides, multicultural Britain is a wonderful place to be living in. Diversity is great.

 

[Bevan Price]

In my opinion, the main problem is that we are a relatively small country, and we do not have enough space to accommodate millions more immigrants. Unintentionally, they help to create housing shortages, pushing up house prices. Building large numbers of new houses leads to a need for more roads, services, etc., etc., and often consumes top quality agricultural land (because that is often the easiest way for developers to maximise their profits.)

So - we should probably allow genuine refugees - those in fear of their lives in their home country - provided they agree to accept our laws & traditions. But we should discourage those whose sole reason is ecomomic, those with dreams of pavements lined with gold that don't actually exist, etc...If they want to move, they should look for somewhere with a lot more space.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

In my opinion, the main problem is that we are a relatively small country, and we do not have enough space to accommodate millions more immigrants. Unintentionally, they help to create housing shortages, pushing up house prices. Building large numbers of new houses leads to a need for more roads, services, etc., etc., and often consumes top quality agricultural land (because that is often the easiest way for developers to maximise their profits.)

So - we should probably allow genuine refugees - those in fear of their lives in their home country - provided they agree to accept our laws & traditions. But we should discourage those whose sole reason is ecomomic, those with dreams of pavements lined with gold that don't actually exist, etc...If they want to move, they should look for somewhere with a lot more space.

I'd agree with most of that.

For me personally, there are two factors which make me cautious of large-scale immigration to the UK: the threat of terrorism and the welfare state. Once those two things reduce significantly (and I mean significantly) I'll be more welcoming of it. As for this multiculturalism is wonderful and all our towns are so diverse and it's amazing carry on a lot of people seem to be alluding to, I'd like to know how. The town where I'm from is one of the least White British (by census definitions) in the country, and a lot of areas of the town are either >95% white or Asian / black. They might go to school or work
together in the same building, but that was it in a lot of cases from my experience.

 

[Giugiaro]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I appreciate knowing each one's opinion.

Bevan Price, from what you said, that would mean that in my case I should be asked to find somewhere else to go, because I'm not a genuine refugee but actually just someone who wants to move overseas because he wants to. I understand the issues you've pointed and I agree that having to accept an extra amount of people brings all sorts of economic problems to an already very populated country.

Now here's a case scenario: You're hiring a group of 5 3D artists to work on your gamming company. 8 People show up, being them 5 British and 3 foreigners. 4 British you already employed since they showed high certificates , a very strong portfolio and passed the interview with success. Now you have to fill the last position and you have:
A / 1 British
B / 1 French already a British citizen
C / 1 Brazilian who just moved to the country
D / 1 Spanish who is living in Spain

A had fair certificates but doesn't have a promising portfolio. He lives really near so he's just "on demand".
B is a bit far away but an established citizen. Has a portfolio with general art and demands a bit bigger salary. He's fluent in English.
C doesn't have his certificates translated and doesn't have a portfolio. He demands to be a trainee while having a much lower salary. He also is an intermediate speaker of English.
D as everything prepared to move in case he is selected. His portfolio shows works that are just what you need and he has a degree in mechanical engineering. He demands a salary that is lower than normal and shows great control of the English language to the point of fooling the interviewer with his speech.


Question: Which would you choose and why.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm happy with anyone who wants to work and get on in life. I work with people from all over the world and they're all top people who ignore cultural differences and get on with it. My experience working for the benefits office for several years was that stereotypes about foreigners creaming benefits were wide of the mark, the worst offenders for that were well and truly home grown with a truly awesome sense of entitlement.

I'm a young gay British lad. I work with a 50 something Kenyan Muslim. His wife makes me lunch when we're on duty together. I swap my days off with him so he can go to the mosque on a Friday. I hate stereotyping because ignorant people just use it to push an agenda and it's largely rubbish. Cultures can be different without clashing and many people just want to get on in life and be decent people.

 

[bb21]

But we should discourage those whose sole reason is ecomomic, those with dreams of pavements lined with gold that don't actually exist, etc...If they want to move, they should look for somewhere with a lot more space.

I really don't understand why some people have problems with people moving here for economic reasons, as long as they actually work hard. The Brits also do that and have been doing that for a long time.

In an ageing society, we desperately need a bigger and younger workforce to support our expenditure on caring for the elderly. Immigration provides a good solution for it. No economic migrants and we can expect an economic meltdown before long.

 

[notadriver]

From my point of view as a employee immigration is an interesting issue. I have a friend who works at the Abellio bus depot in Walworth and he is pretty much the only white British driver there. Travel a few miles down the road to Grove Park train depot and it's the opposite and immigrants are nowhere in sight.

 

[David Barrett]

I notice that the O.P. made reference to the percieved level of violence associated with the immigrant community. I once lived in a very mixed race area of Scunthorpe and indeed every weekend there was drunkenness and violence, never did I notice anybody other than White British involved, I felt ashamed.

 

[talltim]

I wish there was a 'like' button for this whole thread

 

[bangor-toad]

Now here's a case scenario: You're hiring a group of 5 3D artists to work on your gamming company. 8 People show up, being them 5 British and 3 foreigners. 4 British you already employed since they showed high certificates , a very strong portfolio and passed the interview with success. Now you have to fill the last position and you have:
A / 1 British
B / 1 French already a British citizen
C / 1 Brazilian who just moved to the country
D / 1 Spanish who is living in Spain

A had fair certificates but doesn't have a promising portfolio. He lives really near so he's just "on demand".
B is a bit far away but an established citizen. Has a portfolio with general art and demands a bit bigger salary. He's fluent in English.
C doesn't have his certificates translated and doesn't have a portfolio. He demands to be a trainee while having a much lower salary. He also is an intermediate speaker of English.
D as everything prepared to move in case he is selected. His portfolio shows works that are just what you need and he has a degree in mechanical engineering. He demands a salary that is lower than normal and shows great control of the English language to the point of fooling the interviewer with his speech.

Question: Which would you choose and why.

I'll give you an answer for this.
In the circumstances I would be basing the decision first on what is legally simple and then secondly on merit.

So, option C not get considered. Why? They are a non-EU national and they will need a visa to work. They are a trainee and cannot demonstrate that they have skills that no EU resident has. It would be difficult for the company to support a visa application.

No to Option A. The portfolio isn't good. I would want to employ someone with the best skills and experiences possible.

The choice would be either Option B or Option D.
The actual decision would be based on how well each person did in the interview and the expected salary costs of each of them.
The nationality would not play a role in the decision, other than to check they were an EU citizen and legally able to work in the UK.



Interestingly this quite closely matches an interview decision I had to make a couple of years ago. In that particular situation the choice was the equivalent of Option B but the Spanish person (yes they really were!) nearly was offered the role. If the Spanish person had had the same level of experience I would have offered them the role.



As some advice to the OP:
If you are thinking of moving abroad to work and to have new experiences, do it! You will find the whole experience fascinating and rewarding. Some people move abroad, spend some time there and then move back. Others may new move permanently back.
Personally I've lived in the UK, Holland and the USA. The experiences of these places has been great and I'd recommend anyone who is able to try to move abroad tries it fir a while.

Good luck,
Jason

 

[gordonthemoron]

having been an ex-pat myself, I'd say that immigrants to Britain generally behave/integrate far better than British ex-pats

 

[Donny Dave]

I notice that the O.P. made reference to the percieved level of violence associated with the immigrant community. I once lived in a very mixed race area of Scunthorpe and indeed every weekend there was drunkenness and violence, never did I notice anybody other than White British involved, I felt ashamed.

Let me guess .... Crosby, and in particular, the area bordered by Ferry Road, Doncaster Road and Spencer Ave.

In the past few years, there has only been 2 big incidents of note. One about 7 years ago where a load of eastern europeans had a running riot along Frodingham Road and Britannia Corner, and about 4 months ago, a large group of coloured and asian people had a street fight around Fox Street. Other than those 2 incidents, there has been nothing else major, just the usual drunkeness on a Friday and Saturday night, which as you say, is mostly British people involved.

 

[David Barrett]

Let me guess .... Crosby, and in particular, the area bordered by Ferry Road, Doncaster Road and Spencer Ave.

In the past few years, there has only been 2 big incidents of note. One about 7 years ago where a load of eastern europeans had a running riot along Frodingham Road and Britannia Corner, and about 4 months ago, a large group of coloured and asian people had a street fight around Fox Street. Other than those 2 incidents, there has been nothing else major, just the usual drunkeness on a Friday and Saturday night, which as you say, is mostly British people involved.

Slightly outside but only very slightly and near enough for you to collect your 200 quid! Left April 20th 2001 though. Mind you, on the subject of immigration, to listen to my In Laws any body would think that we'd gone to Timbuktu, if only I had realised 30 years ago how little distance I needed to escape. My former abode was at the cul-de-sac end of Gervase Street by the way.

 

[jon0844]

I often get shot down for this but I have no problem with immigrants whatsoever. All this bull**** about 'taking jobs off of decent people' or 'getting benefits over us' or 'taking over the country' is simply not true.

It's not just one or the other though. Immigration can be very good, if people come here that want to start a new life, work hard and integrate. In fact, that's what this country is based on and long may it continue.

It's bad if you get people that come to milk the system and take advantage of systems that are often not geared to prevent abuse, even though there are obviously plenty of people born and brought up here that will aim to do the same.

We have good and bad immigration, and the bad ones tar the others with the same brush. So, it's in all of our interest to deal with the problem - which is what the law abiding, honest, immigrants want us to do too.

Sadly, there are signs that some people are seeking to take over the country, as we can see with the groups imposing Sharia law in east London and attempting to enforce it, or just the many communities taken over that become effective no-go areas for others.

It's not as if everyone is supportive of it - but it IS a problem and something we need to face and deal with, without allowing it to end up being something that panders to the far right wing nutters. It should be treated much the same as other areas that become off limits, such as inner city estates where even the police will often keep away.

As I see it, we cannot pretend there aren't problems because that just gets people who may encounter more problems than others to turn to these organisations or seek to take their own action - and that causes conflict and the very problems that then makes everyone think immigration is bad (and so the cycle repeats).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sadly, there are signs that some people are seeking to take over the country, as we can see with the groups imposing Sharia law in east London and attempting to enforce it, or just the many communities taken over that become effective no-go areas for others.

One of the people doing it being white British.

It should be treated much the same as other areas that become off limits, such as inner city estates where even the police will often keep away.

I have to say, I've never experienced this. I work in one of the poorest boroughs in London and I wouldn't feel unsafe walking around in uniform, and indeed, whenever I've met the police, they've been partners "on the beat". Some of them I wouldn't wander round on my own at night though - but that's the same in every major city in the world.

 

[jon0844]

One of the people doing it being white British.

Indeed. As I said, the problems we have aren't just down to immigration.

I have to say, I've never experienced this. I work in one of the poorest boroughs in London and I wouldn't feel unsafe walking around in uniform, and indeed, whenever I've met the police, they've been partners "on the beat". Some of them I wouldn't wander round on my own at night though - but that's the same in every major city in the world.

I can think of a few places I used to go to in my late teens, mostly in south London. It's one thing to consider yourself streetwise and looking confident, but some places really don't make you feel safe and I've spoken to many police officers that would rather keep away and only enter in larger numbers. Disclaimer: I'm talking more about the 1990s, so a lot can and possibly has happened since then to improve things.

When I worked for Haringey Council, many staff were worried about going to certain places in daylight and it was policy that we had to go in pairs - and in some cases be accompanied by a police officer, depending on the nature of our business there.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I can think of a few places I used to go to in my late teens, mostly in south London.

I try and avoid South London at all costs

When I worked for Haringey Council, many staff were worried about going to certain places in daylight and it was policy that we had to go in pairs - and in some cases be accompanied by a police officer, depending on the nature of our business there.

We have addresses logged in a similar way - some addresses demand immediate police dispatch. It's surprising when an address gets logged by us for verbal abuse, and half the machine guns in London turn up because they've got intelligence of weapons!

In my experience however, these addresses are just as likely to be rich, nice, areas (like some parts of the Isle of Dogs), than in somewhere like the Gascoigne estate in Barking.

However, I agree with you in the sense that some of these places I wouldn't want to be wandering around out of uniform at night on my own. But that's the same in New York, Paris, Berlin, Prague etc etc.

 

[fowler9]

I'd personally employ the Spanish person as they sound the best fit for the job. Best person for the job every time.

I have British friends and relatives living and working in China, Japan, Switzerland, Spain, Australia, New Zealand and Chile. I also have friends from Spain, Poland, Colombia, Finland Sri Lanka and many other places living and working in the UK.

It really doesn't bother me and makes life far more interesting. As long as you learn the language and do your bit for society it isn't a problem. Plenty of brits move abroad and make no effort at all, sadly I know a few of them as well.

 

[Harlesden]

I have no problem with immigration whatsoever, and I'm really not bothered about it. Don't believe the media when they say X amount of Bulgarians/Romanians will be "flooding into the country" next year. The real amount will be far lower than that. Just scaremongering rubbish.

Besides, multicultural Britain is a wonderful place to be living in. Diversity is great.

Yes, diversity is great.
However, the British Government openly discriminates against citizens of countries which were once British colonial countries requiring these people not only to pay for visas but also to undergo very stiff interviews at the local British consulate to be considered for a visa. These are people who are taught English from birth as their first language.
Citizens of European countries with no historical links with Britain are being allowed free unrestricted entry. My own area of London now has such a large Eastern European community that my local major supermarket has an entire aisle devoted to their local foodstuffs.
The case of Jamaica and Barbados is particularly disgraceful as the British government itself were begging people from these countries to come here in the late 1940's and early 1950's to prop up Britain's collapsing public services. Many Caribbean troops also fought for Britain during the Second World War. Now, when the children and grandchildren of these people want to come here, they are treated both at their local British consulate and on arrival at Gatwick/Heathrow almost as though they are terrorists.

 

[David Barrett]

All told we are a bit of a Mongrel Race here anyway regardless of the twaddle that the English is Pure types push on us almost daily, for my part I have found Irish, Scottish, French and Native South African in my lineage, there is even a hint that one or two of us may be English.

 

[flymo]

One of the major obstacles stopping me from ever moving back to the UK is the fact that my Philippine wife, to whom I have been married for over 16 years now, would need a residency visa and the hoops you need to jump through to get such a visa are pretty formidable to the point where it is just not worth the hassle. Maybe the reason it is so formidable is to put off speculative applications but the result is it puts off genuine ones too. It would be much easier for us both the emigrate from Hong Kong to Oz or NZ or in fact anywhere else rather than for us to move to the UK, my home country.

In fact I don't think she would ever move to the UK because the first time she came to the UK in about 2000, the interview with the British Consulate chap was so tough, she came out crying and that was for a single entry tourist visa and it took 4 weeks to get.

Don't think I could ever move back now either. Weird but I now feel as if I am a stranger in my own country.

EDIT: (Thoroughly tongue in cheek remark) As my mother was Scottish, I wonder if, after the referendum and Scotland goes its own way, I could get a residency visa for Scotland for my wife.... Probably easier than the UK... [/tongue in cheek]

 

[starrymarkb]

I have no problem with immigration whatsoever, and I'm really not bothered about it. Don't believe the media when they say X amount of Bulgarians/Romanians will be "flooding into the country" next year. The real amount will be far lower than that. Just scaremongering rubbish.

Besides, multicultural Britain is a wonderful place to be living in. Diversity is great.

Wasn't the Express claiming that Xmillion will flood the country, when "Xmillion" was double the population of Bulgaria and Romania combined?

 

[jon0844]

Most of the people that might be planning to come here aren't doing so for benefits, but to work. So it's not all doom and gloom, given a lot of native Brits don't want to do a lot of those jobs anyway, but there is still a problem.

As has been pointed out by many, our low paid jobs pay better than their low paid jobs. And so people from some EU member states are more than willing to live in more cramped conditions (by sharing with lots of other people to get the rent right down, frankly in some rather nasty conditions), especially if they're only working to make a certain amount of money before returning home.

They're willing to work, and usually work very hard, but they'll do so for less money. Meanwhile, we've got Labour (and no doubt the coalition will catch on and talk about it ahead of the next election) going on about the cost of living crisis and how we all need more money to get by day-to-day.

I'm not sure how you could do both, unless the future immigrants start to become a bit more demanding and stop allowing employers to take advantage of everyone as a result.

 

[bangor-toad]

One of the major obstacles stopping me from ever moving back to the UK is the fact that my Philippine wife, to whom I have been married for over 16 years now, would need a residency visa and the hoops you need to jump through to get such a visa are pretty formidable to the point where it is just not worth the hassle.

Hi flymo,
Are you aware of the "3rd Country" trick that can be helpful in your type of situation?
Whilst I don't know the exact specifics the outline is this:

You and your wife apply to live in any EU country other than the UK.
It's far, far easier to get a visa for somewhere like Romania or Ireland than the UK.
You live there for 6 months.
Whilst you are there you have to work. (Self employed activity is apparently fine even if you actually don't really do anything)
After 6 months you and your wife have the freedom to move within the EU and that includes to the UK.


It's an interesting loophole that can be helpful in some situations.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Hi flymo,
Are you aware of the "3rd Country" trick that can be helpful in your type of situation?
Whilst I don't know the exact specifics the outline is this:

You and your wife apply to live in any EU country other than the UK.
It's far, far easier to get a visa for somewhere like Romania or Ireland than the UK.
You live there for 6 months.
Whilst you are there you have to work. (Self employed activity is apparently fine even if you actually don't really do anything)
After 6 months you and your wife have the freedom to move within the EU and that includes to the UK.

That's known as the Surinder Singh route - Googling for that name should reveal details, but as far as I know your description is fairly accurate.

I understand it's proving a lifeline for many families. Last year the Government changed visa rules for family members - making them so tough that British citizens married to non-EU foreigners are now frequently unable to bring their partners to the UK, and therefore in effect are forcibly separated from their wives/husbands/children (Something that is obviously extraordinarily difficult for people affected by it and which for some reason most of the Press seem to be very reluctant to report about...). Surinder Singh provides an (admittedly very complicated) way for those who are prepared to move out of Britain to another EU country for some months to be reunited with spouses - and since it's protected by EU laws, the Government cannot prevent it.