West Lancashire transport masterplan

[L+Y]

you cannot realistically run any express services on the Ormskirk line without curtailing the existing local services.

Curtailing to some degree, sure, but it's not an impossible task. To quote a winter Saturday from the 1969 WTT, the line quite happily had room for five Liverpool-Ormskirk services in an hour:

2P67 13:10 Liverpool Exchange - Preston East Lancs semi fast DMU.
2F90 13.15 Liverpool Exchange - Ormskirk all stations EMU.
1P22 13.35 Liverpool Exchange - Glasgow loco-hauled express.
2P67 13.40 Liverpool Exchange - Preston East Lancs fast DMU.
2F90 13.45 Liverpool Exchange - Ormskirk all stations EMU.

I'd argue that the problem is more to do with the removal of Liverpool Exchange station (and to a lesser extent the Exchange-Walton Junction quadruple tracks) rather than any inability to run a decent stopping service on the Ormskirk line.

Anyway.

Ormskirk-Preston is my local line, and while I'm delighted to see ideas for improvements circulating, I have my doubts as to whether it'd be financially viable. It is of course by far the most direct route between Liverpool and Preston/Blackpool/Scotland, but without a terminus station in Liverpool there's not really anywhere for theoretical fast services using it to go any more. And I just can't see Croston station, let alone Rufford, generating the passenger numbers to make serious investment worthwhile.

Burscough is another matter, though, and given the local unpopularity of the councils' plans for the development of that town, I'm amazed that the council hasn't agreed to at least partially fund better rail links to Burscough as recompense. The best idea, in my view, is to extend the electrification (and perhaps double track) to Burscough Junction, and run a half hourly service from Liverpool. DMUs would terminate at Burscough off-peak, with a couple continuing through to Ormskirk in the mornings and evenings, providing the remainder of the branch with an hourly service.

As for these port proposals, hasn't the idea of them generating masses of freight largely been demolished on another thread, possibly the one about HS2 and Liverpool? In any case, the routes out are pointing the wrong way to make the Ormskirk line a viable answer, as it's not possible to reach the North Mersey Branch, and thus Aintree and the WCML without running round at Bootle Junction and messing around in the way of the Southport electrics. The line from the North Mersey to the docks has been pretty comprehensively obliterated by house building.

So, in short. Electrify to Burscough pronto, but most other ideas are (unfortunately!) pie in the sky.

 

[HSTEd]

Doubtful they would be geared for much more than 75, 90 possibly if they were heading to Man Airport, otherwise you would lose the acceleration, Merseyrail is currently one of the slowest networks, I think its actually got a lower average journey speed than Metrolink :P

Gearing means little these days, a Class 395 will leave a 508 in the dust even just accelerating to 75mph.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well it is from a family designed for light weight commuter/semi-express services rather than high speed trains, I think they have double the power to weight of a 508 and about 20% higher power to weight than a 390. Point is the Merseyrail network has very low max line speeds and short distances between stations so a higher max speed would only be beneficial when travelling outside the local area, even if they started operating services from Liverpool to Blackpool or Manchester Airport with their own dual-voltage trains there would only be something like a quarter of the fleet potentially taking advantage of higher line speeds.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, but it appears that higher linespeeds don't cost very much any more.

Even crossrail units are being specced for 90mph.
It is not unreasonable to expect the same from Merseyrail.

And even at 75mph max they would still easily beat the times on the Preston-Ormskirk-Liverpool Central corridor which would still be competitive with the existing route for large parts of the hour, not to mention the superior connectivity to parts of Liverpool that aren't directly outside Lime Street.

 

[Wavertreelad]

As for these port proposals, hasn't the idea of them generating masses of freight largely been demolished on another thread, possibly the one about HS2 and Liverpool? In any case, the routes out are pointing the wrong way to make the Ormskirk line a viable answer, as it's not possible to reach the North Mersey Branch, and thus Aintree and the WCML without running round at Bootle Junction and messing around in the way of the Southport electrics. The line from the North Mersey to the docks has been pretty comprehensively obliterated by house building.

So, in short. Electrify to Burscough pronto, but most other ideas are (unfortunately!) pie in the sky.

The problem with any discussion on freight is that the market place is forever changing and very often it is impossible to predict the long term the flows on some routes. If you go back 50 years, Felixstowe was not a major port as there were no deep sea container services and when they did arrive Sealand Service (now part of Maersk) had a road trailer chassis for every container. In the same time we have seen the elimination of traditional wagon load freight trains which had lasted over 100 years and replaced by block trains. I have never suggested that the after 2015 the freight floodgates will open immediately, but Peel and the local authorities will be looking at both short term and long term options in their respective plans. However, I do accept you point that present the connection between the Port and the Ormskirk route would be a problem, but in the long term perhaps not impossible to overcome. We can only wait and see.

 

[Lankyline]

The problem with any discussion on freight is that the market place is forever changing and very often it is impossible to predict the long term the flows on some routes. If you go back 50 years, Felixstowe was not a major port as there were no deep sea container services and when they did arrive Sealand Service (now part of Maersk) had a road trailer chassis for every container. In the same time we have seen the elimination of traditional wagon load freight trains which had lasted over 100 years and replaced by block trains. I have never suggested that the after 2015 the freight floodgates will open immediately, but Peel and the local authorities will be looking at both short term and long term options in their respective plans. However, I do accept you point that present the connection between the Port and the Ormskirk route would be a problem, but in the long term perhaps not impossible to overcome. We can only wait and see.

The current £300 million project to deepen the Mersey will, in Peel's estimates, add 500,000 extra containers a year (or av 9600 per week) as larger container ships carrying 13500 containers will be from 2015 able to offload at the new Seaforth 2 terminal.

The question is what provision is, or has been made to move the potential additional container traffic ? still via Chat Moss ? or does finding a new way to possibly go via Ormskirk start to become a possibility ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This might be of interest as it deals with the current & proposed expansion of the docks and the road / rail / sea infrastructure required to handle expansion, seems that the rail focus is still midlands / south, no mention of moving containers north, seems to answer my own question !

http://www.sefton.gov.uk/pdf/Access_to_Port_of_Liverpool_Study_Non_Technical_ Summary_Nov_11.pdf

 

[L+Y]

I do accept you point that present the connection between the Port and the Ormskirk route would be a problem, but in the long term perhaps not impossible to overcome. We can only wait and see.

I suspect it is unfortunately as near to impossible as you can get, really. Rebuilding the connection from the docks to the old L&Y lines from Liverpool would entail the demolition of dozens of homes and cost £££. Much easier to simply route freight via Prescot and St. Helens, sadly!

 

[Bevan Price]

Would that be the one that had an intermediate station at Westhead Halt ?

Correct. It served some nearby houses on the A577, but not much else.

 

[Holly]

I suspect it is unfortunately as near to impossible as you can get, really. Rebuilding the connection from the docks to the old L&Y lines from Liverpool would entail the demolition of dozens of homes and cost £££. Much easier to simply route freight via Prescot and St. Helens, sadly!

I'm sure you are right.

But at some point in the future there will need to be a second route from the docks to the network if only to provide for diversions. Even if a reversal (to reach Bootle Oriel Road) is needed.

It's hard to see how this could be done cheaply but it will have to be done one day. Let's hope no more old trackbeds are destroyed in the meanwhile.

 

[L+Y]

It's hard to see how this could be done cheaply but it will have to be done one day. Let's hope no more old trackbeds are destroyed in the meanwhile.

Will it?

I'm coming off a right pessimist here, and I don't mean to: I wish I could go back to the 1960s and see the railways as they were then, and I think there's lots of decent improvement schemes for railways in the north Liverpool/SW Lancashire area that could materialise in the next decade or so. But not this!

The lurking menace which I think a lot of enthusiasts overlook is the gradual rise of the electric car, which I fear could blow away the rail revival of the past twenty years altogether.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm sure you are right. But at some point in the future there will need to be a second route from the docks to the network if only to provide for diversions. Even if a reversal (to reach Bootle Oriel Road) is needed.

Does anyone know what is the position of the line that used to serve Canada Dock and Alexandra Dock, that saw a chord leaving those lines (prior to Balliol Road station) that ran on the dockside side of the lines behind both the stations of Bootle Oriel Road and Bootle New Strand ? Where did it go after passing through Bootle ?

 

[Wavertreelad]

The current £300 million project to deepen the Mersey will, in Peel's estimates, add 500,000 extra containers a year (or av 9600 per week) as larger container ships carrying 13500 containers will be from 2015 able to offload at the new Seaforth 2 terminal.

The question is what provision is, or has been made to move the potential additional container traffic ? still via Chat Moss ? or does finding a new way to possibly go via Ormskirk start to become a possibility ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This might be of interest as it deals with the current & proposed expansion of the docks and the road / rail / sea infrastructure required to handle expansion, seems that the rail focus is still midlands / south, no mention of moving containers north, seems to answer my own question !

http://www.sefton.gov.uk/pdf/Access_to_Port_of_Liverpool_Study_Non_Technical_ Summary_Nov_11.pdf

Peel already has plans to help deal with the additional road volume particularly around the entrance to the main gate at Seaforth and I did hear of a scheme to build a relief road which would run broadly parallel to the north of Church Road and Dunningsbrige Road to the M57. Given it has taken about 30 years to get to go ahead to build the Thornton byepass to Switch Island which is the present junction of the M57/M58 I would not expect this to happen overnight!

The existing feeder service operated by Peel to Port Salford on the Manchester Ship Canal will no doubt be expanded which could potentially cater for another 80000/100000 teu p/a maximum depending on the configuration of the Salford terminal and frequency etc, but vessels will be limited to about 350 teu because of restrictions on the canal. Additional feeders could also run to Greenock, and the Workington area.

Initially the existing railhead at Seaforth will be used to handle containers to and form the new Liverpool2 riverside terminal, as well as the existing Seaforth Container Terminal which will be slightly reconfigured to share some landside facilities with the new terminal. However, within the dock estate, the track layout will be upgraded to allow a more flexibility, including multiple locomotives on the estate. At this stage, I am NOT aware of any plans to electrify any of the trackwork within the dock estate. In the longer term, Peel are developing plans to extend the rail link to the new Liverpool2 terminal, which would require the track reach the west side of the existing Seaforth dock to make the transfer of containers more efficient.

More immediate plans are to look at reopening the Canada Dock branch line to Canada Dock which has partly been filled in and has been discussed elsewhere in this forum. The purpose is allow the line to serve the bulk terminals at Canada and Huskission Docks which currently cannot be reached from the Alexandra Dock crossing because the old MDHC track work was severed by industrial development.

Given the glut of port capacity in the south of England now London Gateway has opened, realistically the projections of the 2020 before distribution capacity is a major problem for the Port of Liverpool is probably about right, although as I mentioned earlier predicting the pattern of freight movements in so far in the future is largely guesswork. Much also depends on working practices of UK industry, most of which only wants collections and deliveries between 0800hrs and 1600hrs Monday to Friday, which does allow the road haulage to collect and deliver containers to and from the Port outside peak hours.

I suspect it is unfortunately as near to impossible as you can get, really. Rebuilding the connection from the docks to the old L&Y lines from Liverpool would entail the demolition of dozens of homes and cost £££. Much easier to simply route freight via Prescot and St. Helens, sadly!

The problem is what happens when Chat Moss reaches capacity? I accept this is not an immediate problem, but perhaps in 10 years time it could be, and hence the suggestion. Looking at it now, and assuming Google satellite maps is no too out of date, one solution could be a short tunnel from Alexandra Dock facing north to the North Mersey Branch to Aintree Station and the Ormskirk Line. This route still appears to still be in place, but not used and potentially would also allow a local passenger service to be introduced. Another alternative would be some sort of connection in the Kirkdale Station area where the existing Bootle Branch line crosses under the Kirkby and Ormskirk line. As I posted earlier, only time will tell if they are necessary.

 

[Francis]

Stepping back a bit from the debate and looking strategically at what has happened to the Liverpool rail system. The effect of the Merseyrail electrics has been to provide a frequent suburban service, but at the cost of cutting the city of Liverpool off from much of its natural hinterland further out.

If you compare Liverpool with Manchester, you find that Southport, Chester, Wigan and Preston all have trains to Manchester which are just as fast, or faster, than those to Liverpool. To get to Liverpool you are on stopping-all-stations electrics or diesels, achingly slow, while Manchester has much faster services. It has all helped to increase the predominance of Manchester and to constrict Scousedom, though some might regard that as a good thing.

I just wonder if DB in Germany would ever have done something like putting buffer stops in at Kirkby and Ormskirk, severing the main routes between major towns (Liverpool population 450,000, Wigan Metro 330,000, Preston built up area 313,000). The Chester route was also severed after the closure of Birkenhead Woodside, with changes at Rock Ferry, and later Hooton, until electrification was completed through to Chester.

The closure of Liverpool Exchange, with hindsight, was very short sighted, and it would now cost millions in tunnelling and new junctions to divert the old L&Y lines from Walton into Lime St via either the SUSTRANS route or via Olive Mount Jc.

The fast trains into Liverpool now are only from larger cities: from Manchester via Warrington or Chat Moss, and from Birmingham and London via Runcorn. There are the semi-fast hourlies from Blackpool/Preston/Wigan/St Helens. Besides those mentioned above, even the Wrexham line needs the change at Bidston, and there are no through services at all to North Wales.

Ironically, do you remember that when Jack Straw MP invited Condoleeza Rice, US Defense secretary, to Blackburn, the US press bizarrely described Blackburn as "a suburb of Liverpool." In the old days the L&Y ran high speed trains from Liverpool to East Lancashire (Blackburn-Accrington-Burnley), and to Bolton-Bury-Rochdale and Yorkshire. Just compare that with the situation today!

 

[WatcherZero]

Well you cant have a all stops high frequency Metro system built upon the knowledge every station will be called upon and a high speed express service that skips stations at the same time, they are mutually exclusive concepts. If you want express services operating on Merseyrail Electrics then you are going to have to choose stations to have a reduced calling pattern.

 

[8H]

I think Francis makes very fair points, you can have fasts and slows if you have capacity. Out of Birkenhead toward Chester for example the 4 track width trackbed is still extant to just beyond Hooton where it used to finish, and the 40 odd minute journey time Liverpool to Chester is pretty rubbish for the distance. The Birkenhead Paddington trains only needed about 30 mins from Woodside. Reinstate four tacks and you have space for overtaking slower services as used to happen.

Oh and talking of rail connected docks, Birkenhead still is if you chop the trees down between the sleepers! Any takers amongst you shipping experts?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Reinstate four tacks and you have space for overtaking slower services as used to happen.

That sounds a very basic method for rail infrastructure in 2013.....

 

[Wavertreelad]

I think Francis makes very fair points, you can have fasts and slows if you have capacity. Out of Birkenhead toward Chester for example the 4 track width trackbed is still extant to just beyond Hooton where it used to finish, and the 40 odd minute journey time Liverpool to Chester is pretty rubbish for the distance. The Birkenhead Paddington trains only needed about 30 mins from Woodside. Reinstate four tacks and you have space for overtaking slower services as used to happen.

Oh and talking of rail connected docks, Birkenhead still is if you chop the trees down between the sleepers! Any takers amongst you shipping experts?

The problem with Birkenhead Docks is that they are constrained by the depth of water and size of the locks, or put another way it is very unlikely that you would see it developed to handle containers, and ferry (ro/ro) traffic will continue to call at a riverside terminal. Peel has already announced plans to develop parts of the Birkenhead estate in their Wirral Waters scheme, which sees a variety of uses.

http://wirralwaters.co.uk/content/home.php

Whilst some berths will continue to handle ships with bulk cargo, or layup, in the long term the internal dock estate will I suspect eventually end up devoid of commercial shipping as the costs of maintaining the infrastructure to the required standard will make it uneconomic.

 

[8H]

Spell checks don't help with things like tacks and tracks do they !!

Aaaarrgghh

 

[edwin_m]

Spell checks don't help with things like tacks and tracks do they !!

Aaaarrgghh

I think you hit the nail on the head there.