Class 142

[PHILIPE]

FTP can afford to buy 10 350's, so why can't northern. The 142 is finished, Im glad my journey is a 323, 390, 350.

TOCs don't buy trains - DFT procure them.

 

[IanXC]

I think Sheffield-Cleethorpes might be a contender (2h11m).

I'll raise you the 1625 Lincoln Central to Hull via Retford, Sheffield, Rotherham
Central, Doncaster and Goole, at 3hr25m! (And no, before anyone wonders I'm not that mad!)

 

[DT611]

I could take a hit at Arriva if you want, it doesnt matter how much money you spend on 150s, 153s and 158s, there horrible trains. I only like their 175, I dont mind modern diesels. Ive never had a 30 year old car, so why would a train be the same.

because trains cost a large amount of money and have a long life span, cars on the other hand have a short life span (all though their are exceptions) many people do enjoy driving old cars believe it or not, the 175s are okay units from the little experience of them i have had, if they were quieter and had either proper tables or airline style seates (but with good space) then i think they could be a decent unit, the pacers and sprinters are going nowhere fast.

 

[chorleyjeff]

because trains cost a large amount of money and have a long life span, cars on the other hand have a short life span (all though their are exceptions) many people do enjoy driving old cars believe it or not, the 175s are okay units from the little experience of them i have had, if they were quieter and had either proper tables or airline style seates (but with good space) then i think they could be a decent unit, the pacers and sprinters are going nowhere fast.

But not very fast.

 

[samuelmorris]

I could take a hit at Arriva if you want, it doesnt matter how much money you spend on 150s, 153s and 158s, there horrible trains. I only like their 175, I dont mind modern diesels. Ive never had a 30 year old car, so why would a train be the same

Because you're not the one paying for it outright? Or paying to insure it, or fuel it, or hire the driver and guard for it, or the cleaners and maintenance staff that work on it.
Trains cost several million pounds each, and you need a lot of them to run a railway network, and the money for that is paid back a few quid here, a few quid there, with a lot of overheads to consider. TOCs (and, ultimately as said, the lessors that actually own the stock in the first place) like to get their money's worth.
In practice, if you replaced trains every 15 years, the fares would be considerably higher, unnecessarily. With the nicest trains in the world you're still going to be sharing your commute with hoardes of other people, at least some of whom will be dirty and/or unsociable. The travelling experience can only be improved by the rolling stock so far.

A bit of a stretch maybe, but 158s/159s certainly aren't worthy of a great deal of criticism. I've quite enjoyed my travels on those with SWT of late, in my warm comfortable seat with a table to use if I like, fairly smooth and a fairly acceptable noise level.

 

[nathanclass323]

I could take a hit at Arriva if you want, it doesnt matter how much money you spend on 150s, 153s and 158s, there horrible trains. I only like their 175, I dont mind modern diesels. Ive never had a 30 year old car, so why would a train be the same.

There's no need to answer back like that. Arriva have done what they can to improve their units so you have no need to take a hit at any Train Operating Company just because of their rolling stock. Each TOC gets what they're given and it apears that you don't understand that. I would seriously suggest you reconsider why you're taking a hit at either Northern or Arriva Wales.

 

[TOCDriver]

What is the longest journey for which a Pacer is diagrammed these days?

Defo the Lancaster to Leeds route. At least as far as Northern is concerned

 

[rm88]

Im having an opinion at a TOC's rolling stock, is that a crime today?
Arriva can't cal its service Premier class, when it's an old loco with some mk2 coaches put together, there's loads of them south of Crewe. If that's premier service, then Virgin must be Super class.

 

[yorksrob]

Defo the Lancaster to Leeds route. At least as far as Northern is concerned

Is that longer than Carlisle - Newcastle ?

 

[Manchester77]

Im having an opinion at a TOC's rolling stock, is that a crime today?
Arriva can't cal its service Premier class, when it's an old loco with some mk2 coaches put together, there's loads of them south of Crewe. If that's premier service, then Virgin must be Super class.

- No it's just you don't really have a valid argument to base it on.
- The premier service is operated by Mark IIIs and a 67 now.
- Haha, I'm sure that's brightened a few of our days haha

 

[DT611]

Im having an opinion at a TOC's rolling stock, is that a crime today?

no, but expecting trains to be replaced at will is unreasonable, expecting them to be refurbished unnecessarly is also unreasonable.

Arriva can't cal its service Premier class, when it's an old loco with some mk2 coaches put together

LOL, the mark 1 2 and 3 carriges were some of the best carriges ever built and were very comfortable specially when looked after, so yes if their using mark 3 or 2 carriges they can call it premier class, good carriges, no under floor engine noise, comfortable seats, and the rest, i'm sure the people who use the ATW premier service are happy with the comfortable mark 3 carrige, and i'm sure those on the service up in scotland which use mark 2 carriges are very happy also.

there's loads of them south of Crewe.

and long may that continue

If that's premier service, then Virgin must be Super class.

the mark 3 carrige is a premier carrige, so is the mark 2 and the mark 1 was also

 

[tbtc]

Of the routes Pacers (or Sprinters for that matter) typically work, how many are actually going to be electrified in the next 15 years?

CP5 electrification (2014 - 2019) is mainly about wiring long distance routes (the MML to Sheffield, the GWML to Swansea, , the gaps in the Transpennine route from Liverpool to Newcastle, the "electric spine"). Apart from the Valley Lines, few 75mph DMUs like Pacers will be directly replaced (mainly 100mph/ 125mph stock).

CP6 (2019 - 2024) is when I expect the "infill" stuff to be targeted. For example, once you've electrified the longer distance routes around Manchester, that means it'll be easier to focus on routes like Warrington Central, Wigan Wallgate and the Calder Valley.

My personal opinion (not based on any claims of "insider knowledge" or anything like that) is that CP6 will see a significant number of 75mph DMUs as these routes become "easier pickings".

Problem is, this means that there won't be need for a huge number of 75mph DMUs after 2024, which makes it very hard to justify building many in the near future (hence why I think some Pacers will continue into the 2020s, and we won't see any diesel replacements.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that longer than Carlisle - Newcastle ?

I don't know the distances, but I'd say that Carlisle - Newcastle is a more significant Pacer route since...

...its the fastest way between the two cities (the only way in fact!), unlike routes like Sheffield - Leeds, Leeds - Manchester, Manchester - Sheffield where there are Pacers on slow services that are overtaken by longer distance stock (so the Pacers aren't intended for "end to end" passengers)...

...there is certainly some demand to get between the two cities (compared to something like Leeds to Morecambe)...

...but as Anvil1984 (who works the route) pointed out, a 30m Pacer seems to cope with most loadings on the route.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't know the distances, but I'd say that Carlisle - Newcastle is a more significant Pacer route since...

...its the fastest way between the two cities (the only way in fact!), unlike routes like Sheffield - Leeds, Leeds - Manchester, Manchester - Sheffield where there are Pacers on slow services that are overtaken by longer distance stock (so the Pacers aren't intended for "end to end" passengers)...

...there is certainly some demand to get between the two cities (compared to something like Leeds to Morecambe)...

...but as Anvil1984 (who works the route) pointed out, a 30m Pacer seems to cope with most loadings on the route.

It's also worth noting that you're more likely to get a 142 on Newcastle - Carlisle and 144 on Leeds - Morecambe !

(I found the one I caught on the Newcastle - Carlisle route too well loaded for my comfort).

 

[6Gman]

Im having an opinion at a TOC's rolling stock, is that a crime today?
Arriva can't cal its service Premier class, when it's an old loco with some mk2 coaches put together, there's loads of them south of Crewe. If that's premier service, then Virgin must be Super class.

Your opinion is your opinion, but thereby open to challenge!

As already pointed out Arriva uses a Class 67 (hardly old) with Mk IIIs - considered by many to be the best carriages ever built for the UK.

Not sure what you mean by "loads of them south of Crewe".

Virgin Super class? Well, they're fast, but the Mk IIIs are much more comfortable.

But that's just an opinion and you can challenge it if you wish!

 

[Crossover]

Not sure why but I have come to quite like Pacers

At least, one of them I was on today was warmer than anything else all day (Bolton to Southport) and believe me, all were better than standing on platforms in the freezing cold!

They've been on the Cumbrian, but I'm not sure they are specifically diagrammed that way, I personally have only ever seen 153s and 156s round there. If they are not, I think Sheffield-Cleethorpes might be a contender (2h11m).

I was thinking that may be one of the longer ones, and yes, I have done it...end to end!

I'll raise you the 1625 Lincoln Central to Hull via Retford, Sheffield, Rotherham
Central, Doncaster and Goole, at 3hr25m! (And no, before anyone wonders I'm not that mad!)

No? *cough* Voyager *cough*

Defo the Lancaster to Leeds route. At least as far as Northern is concerned

I doubt it. I was on it yesterday (the one via Hest Bank) and having left Lancaster at 16:03, we were at Skipton by 16:40. It may be on par with the Gainsborough Central service, but that is probably about it

It's also worth noting that you're more likely to get a 142 on Newcastle - Carlisle and 144 on Leeds - Morecambe !

150 on the Lancaster-Morecambe-Leeds service last night (though some girls who boarded were still miffed to find no tables...can't please everyone I guess :P)

 

[yorksrob]

150 on the Lancaster-Morecambe-Leeds service last night (though some girls who boarded were still miffed to find no tables...can't please everyone I guess :P)

The final seating bay between the doors and the cab can feel reasonably private and secluded for a trip back through the wilderness

 

[Crossover]

The final seating bay between the doors and the cab can feel reasonably private and secluded for a trip back through the wilderness

Ah, I was just with the great unwashed :P

Confused a couple of people by tapping away on my laptop :P

 

[455driver]

FTP can afford to buy 10 350's, so why can't northern. The 142 is finished, Im glad my journey is a 323, 390, 350.

FTPE are not buying any trains though, the DaFT have decided that FTPE need some new trains so they have asked a ROSCO to buy the trains. The ROSCO will then lease them to FTPE.

Spend 5 minutes looking how things are done in the modern railway world and you would understand why Northern are struggling for trains.

 

[RichmondCommu]

LOL, the mark 1 2 and 3 carriges were some of the best carriges ever built and were very comfortable specially when looked after, so yes if their using mark 3 or 2 carriges they can call it premier class, good carriges, no under floor engine noise, comfortable seats, and the rest, i'm sure the people who use the ATW premier service are happy with the comfortable mark 3 carrige, and i'm sure those on the service up in scotland which use mark 2 carriges are very happy also.

and long may that continue

the mark 3 carrige is a premier carrige, so is the mark 2 and the mark 1 was also

With reference to the Mk1's they were mobile death traps when it came to protecting commuters in the event of an accident.

 

[alwaystouchout]

The 142s aren't much to look at but they're a hell of a lot more comfortable to ride than the 150s.

I feel almost claustrophobic when I'm sat on a 150 with its foul orange interior and cheap, uncomfortable seating

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The only way the Pacers could be withdrawn is if enough electrification happens to cut the amount of diesel routes sufficiently that the rest of the DMUS could cover the non-electrified services and allow some expansion where justified (going to take a long time) or else allow the pacer withdrawel and buy new DMUS to replace them (probably isn't going to happen because of electrification meaning the rest of the DMU fleet can be cascaded) so capacity has to be taken wherever it can be got which means Pacers.

I thank for you this answer to my query as to the post-2019 scenario that will be faced in the Pacer fleet, especially the Class 142 units, by those same people that the Act was meant to be an assistance in rail travel.

Perhaps we should ban these people from the use of the Class 142 units, effectively solving the problem at one fell swoop.

 

[DT611]

With reference to the Mk1's they were mobile death traps when it came to protecting commuters in the event of an accident.

would your statement be to do with the potential for "over riding" that these carriges apparently could suffer from?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thank for you this answer to my query as to the post-2019 scenario that will be faced in the Pacer fleet, especially the Class 142 units, by those same people that the Act was meant to be an assistance in rail travel.

Perhaps we should ban these people from the use of the Class 142 units, effectively solving the problem at one fell swoop.

unless electrification gets to enough places to allow a complete DMU cascade meaning enough to cover all diesel routes with the sprinter and other DMU fleets bar the pacer, or a load new DMUS are bought to replace the pacers only, what else can be done? people have to be realistic, its all good having an act that comes into force in such a year but if stock is still in use that doesn't fit into that act but is still in good enough condition to use and electrification hasn't happened to a sufficient amount to allow enough DMUS to be cascaded to replace those units and cover other duties or no new DMUS get bought to replace the units then the only thing that can be done is to keep those units in service and give them an exemption

 

[fowler9]

I will be frankly astounded if Northern Rail in Liverpool gets any brand new rolling stock ever.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I will be frankly astounded if Northern Rail in Liverpool gets any brand new rolling stock ever.

I will be astounded if Northern Rail ever get any new rolling stock anywhere!

 

[yorksrob]

The 142s aren't much to look at but they're a hell of a lot more comfortable to ride than the 150s.

I feel almost claustrophobic when I'm sat on a 150 with its foul orange interior and cheap, uncomfortable seating

At least it‘s easier to get a facing seat on a 150. Far preferable to a 142 IMO.

 

[jon0844]

unless electrification gets to enough places to allow a complete DMU cascade meaning enough to cover all diesel routes with the sprinter and other DMU fleets bar the pacer, or a load new DMUS are bought to replace the pacers only, what else can be done? people have to be realistic, its all good having an act that comes into force in such a year but if stock is still in use that doesn't fit into that act but is still in good enough condition to use and electrification hasn't happened to a sufficient amount to allow enough DMUS to be cascaded to replace those units and cover other duties or no new DMUS get bought to replace the units then the only thing that can be done is to keep those units in service and give them an exemption

In my opinion, there should be no extension given to allow non-complaint trains to continue in service beyond what was an extremely generous grace period.

If we did, it would signal the approval to do so in loads of different areas and that would be a disaster for people that need more accessibility.

It would also tell the rail industry (and Government) that it could just drag its heels and do nothing even with a deadline because you could simply do bugger all and hope to be allowed to carry on as normal.

Now, I'm not saying I'd accept pulling all of the trains out of service (as that clearly couldn't happen) but if a solution hasn't been worked out by 2020, then there should be HUGE penalties with a daily penalty for continuing to run non-complaint trains.

Knowing that this deadline won't slip is the only way to make sure something is done, but it would seem that a possible workaround is already being sought - namely to pair up the trains with stock that is compliant. If that's accepted then I suppose the 142s won't have any modification work done at all.

But that will mean a 142 never EVER being able to run on its own beyond 2020.

I can of course already see the headlines. The Government/DfT/ROSCO does nothing and hopes to carry on as normal.. deadline comes, trains must be taken out of use. TOC now gets the blame for it all, and you get the cries of 'the world has gone mad.. they'd rather not run trains than upset a few people in wheelchairs'.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In my opinion, there should be no extension given to allow non-complaint trains to continue in service beyond what was an extremely generous grace period. If we did, it would signal the approval to do so in loads of different areas. I can of course already see the headlines. The Government/DfT/ROSCO does nothing and hopes to carry on as normal.. deadline comes, trains must be taken out of use. TOC now gets the blame for it all, and you get the cries of 'the world has gone mad.. they'd rather not run trains than upset a few people in wheelchairs'.

I am not sure whether or not you read my posting, earlier in the thread, to which a response was made, which your posting above then referred to. I made a final draconian suggestion that should the deadline for the proposals in the act be indeed passed with no action taken, that the disabled people for who the said Act was enacted should be banned from using the Class 142 Pacers (that Angel Trains have categorically stated will not be made compliant).

Acts are brought to the Statute Book by Government and the DfT are also a part of Government. This particular problem is been known for years and we are now fast approaching the end of 2013. May I be so bold as to enquire as to the latest date that a Government pronouncement was made that related to this problem and of their views on action envisaged to be a resolution of this most unhappy state of affairs.

 

[Bayum]

I doubt it. I was on it yesterday (the one via Hest Bank) and having left Lancaster at 16:03, we were at Skipton by 16:40. It may be on par with the Gainsborough Central service, but that is probably about it

Are you sure?


On RealTime it's not scheduled to get into Skipton until 17:40!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y46308/2013/11/18/advanced


End to end, the Lancaster - Leeds is scheduled to take 2hrs 9mins throughout the journey.

Newcastle - Carlisle is only 1hr 40 mins.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y44681/2013/11/20/advanced

 

[Crossover]

Are you sure?


On RealTime it's not scheduled to get into Skipton until 17:40!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y46308/2013/11/18/advanced


End to end, the Lancaster - Leeds is scheduled to take 2hrs 9mins throughout the journey.

Slip of the finger that - if only it could be done in 45 mins :P

 

[Starmill]

I do sympathise with this whole 'unfit for purpose' thing with 142s if I'm honest. Especially when you find one of the ones with the brown floor covering, that has escaped death one too many times. 143s and 144s don't even particularly bother me that much, but specifically 142s I totally see why anyone would be miffed to have to ride one for a length of time. All that about funding, capacity etc. couldn't be more true; but that's not really a customer's problem is it? People don't want them, and 142s with a floor covering that hasn't been changed since they were built is not the image I want for our railways either. There could be a bit more effort than at present put into shafting them.