My idea for improved North East services

[Tetchytyke]

Gateshead town centre is within walking distance of Newcastle Central station, so a station there would be utterly pointless. The borough has heavy rail stations at the MetroCentre, Heworth, Blaydon and Dunston.

Washington would only get a station- and an inconvenient one out by the Wetlands Centre at that- if the Leamside Line was re-opened. Whilst the Leamside Line is technically mothballed (although sections around Fencehouses are missing, partly stolen and partly where the level crossing was removed), re-opening it would be extremely expensive. Again, would this be a worthwhile expenditure? Probably not.

 

[Spaceflower]

The Leamside was lifted in its entirity last spring by NR.

There isn't enough local stations on the east durham line to be of mutual benefit to the local service. Stations at Ryhope, Easington, Horden, Blackhall and Norton, for example. Its not going to happen.

I don't know why you keep referring to small stations on the ECML?

If we had some 158's to run a Tyne-Tees express via Durham.....we ve got plenty of 142's to swap once a share of TPE and XC trains are diverted down the coast......

 

[YorkshireBear]

TPE and XC will not be diverted down the coast route. End of.

 

[Eagle]

Gateshead does have a fairly major station: Metrocentre. Other parts of Gateshead are adequately served by the Metro.

Washington I agree is the poor relation of Tyne and Wear, public transport-wise.
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The Leamside was lifted in its entirity last spring by NR.

Doesn't mean it's closed for good though. As many have pointed out, if they wanted to reopen it the first thing they would have to do is completely replace the old and decaying track. And now they've already done half of that.

 

[bluenoxid]

What would be the pace of a service running from Middlesbrough to Durham?

Fair to say, I think that further localisation of services plus long distance services are going to be the main driver of service development in the NE.

A nice idea would be for the Metrocentre and Blaydon to receive wires. That would allow for the development of EMU services in the NE, particularly if EMU's could be used on additional slow trains to Edinburgh.

However, the rail network does not really compete very well with the road network.

A reopened Leamside route to Washington with P&R are developments that I think would push connectivity.

 

[Eagle]

Can you even terminate a train at Durham? Or would you have to continue all the way to Newcastle?

 

[ainsworth74]

Can you even terminate a train at Durham? Or would you have to continue all the way to Newcastle?

There are crossovers floating around there and I believe a siding or two though I'm not sure of the exact track layout. That being said I'm not sure you'd want to block the ECML like that...

 

[tbtc]

Seems silly to run up the ECML from Darlington/ Ferrymill to Durham and not continue up to Newcastle (if you are taking up a path anyway then why not use it properly)

 

[Spaceflower]

Seems silly to run up the ECML from Darlington/ Ferrymill to Durham and not continue up to Newcastle (if you are taking up a path anyway then why not use it properly)

I was thinking Middlesbrough to Newcastle trains via Stillington and Durham, not Darlington and Durham.

 

[Jonny]

There are crossovers floating around there and I believe a siding or two though I'm not sure of the exact track layout. That being said I'm not sure you'd want to block the ECML like that...

Turnaround is possible, but it was intended for trains to and from Newcastle to turn back. It does get used for turnarounds from Darlington during times of disruption though

There are loops on both sides of the line that could be used to move services around any blockage so it would be more of an operational irritation. It's actually 4 track at one point.
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Can you even terminate a train at Durham? Or would you have to continue all the way to Newcastle?

If it's a local, it might as well continue stopping to Newcastle - as in Durham, Chester-le-Street, Newcastle. In fact, the ECML has pee-poor local services North of York unless you count TPE (ex-Regional Railways Express) and the section between NCL and Morpeth. Also a better service at Chester-le-Street would open up job opportunities in areas such as North Tyneside (via Metro) and further afield by rail. Also, if any new services were to be 'flighted' in and were short enough to fit the platforms, CLS would make a handy 'tactical stop'.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Can you even terminate a train at Durham? Or would you have to continue all the way to Newcastle?

The down platform is on a loop, which has a junction back on to the down main just north of the platform. The down loop continues with a further junction back on about half a mile further north. There is an up loop too, but this rejoins just before the up platform, which is on the up main.

The crossover is between the up and down main, just north of the station. It is possible to get from the down platform to the up main (or vice versa) using these. It isn't possible to get into the up loop from the down loop though, so the shunt would be blocking the up main. I don't know if the shunt is permitted with the signalling either, as this is my recollection as a passenger (I worked in Durham for years and years). This design allows an up train to use the down platform (and I've been on an XC train which has done precisely that), so a shuttle from Newcastle could turn back easily enough in the down platform.

Both the up and down main are signalled for bi-directional working, but the next crossovers are at Birtley (northbound) or Tursdale (southbound), if I recall correctly.

ETA: william's avatar shows the layout north of Durham station. The HST is moving from the down loop on to the down main. The crossover is about where the leading power car is.

 

[Kryten2340]

A think I would like to see in the north east is a new mainline station serving Gatshead and a station serving Washington. Both of those I think would benefit from having a station.

Unless I'm missing the obvious the only place large enough for a station in Gateshead town centre would be the 'waste land' area off of Park Lane where I believe there used to be lots of sidings there years ago (I'm only 32 so probably before my time) and even then I would say that's outside of the town centre as you would be faced with an approx 10 minute walk to get to the likes of Jackson St/Telco where the majority of people would be going to. Like others have said the town centre is adequately served by the Metro and in my opinion the majority of the time you would only see locals in Gateshead anyway (exception being Gateshead stadium) The only logical reason I could see for a station in Gateshead would be for access to the Metrocentre but that's adequately served by the X66 bus service.

As for Washington I can see the scope for a train service but at the same time the majority of Washington including the Galleries (the town centre for those outside of the region).

This may be urban legend but I recall someone telling me back when the Metro extension was first mooted that the original plan was to run to Sunderland via Washington but the townsfolk kicked up a fuss due the rise in taxes it would bring. I was young and naive back then and thinking about it now that ridership would pay for the extension.

Here's a thought though, it's hypothetical but if there was capacity on the ECML would a station or two on the Team Valley be highly used? Could provide a useful shuttle service between Central and the Team Valley and Durham for that matter. I say hypothetical as it's obvious there is no capacity but just wondering...

 

[SeanG]

Personally I think Chester le Street needs a better service.If only for the number of decent real ale pubs in the town!

 

[TUC]

People would be surprised how busy the Northern services can get along the Coast, i've been on plenty where it's full and standing - even during midday services.

The fact it links to the MetroCentre is a big must - and people use it primarily for this reason, it's fast enough, and you don't have the problem of traffic.

However, a half hourly service from the MetroCentre to Middlesbrough/Nunthorpe would work wonders (where pathing permits), giving people a choice of when to travel, and opening up new opportunities.

For this to work though, I'd probably suggest a new station at Teesside Park to be installed as with the Tees Metro proposal, to further increase possible passenger numbers - and obviously linking James Cook would be a great proposal.

The one where Northern often falls over on is late-night services. When there's something big on in Newcastle, whether that be at the MetroRadio Arena or elsewhere, there's just no way of getting back - which is a shame. The last train is before ten I believe, but many acts don't actually finish until around this time... so it's leave early or don't go! One extra, later train would also work wonders and would probably increase people's thoughts on the railway as a service option rather than inconvenience at this time of night.

All relatively simple things to deliver-and Northern lacks the get up and go to do any of them.

 

[Spaceflower]

All relatively simple things to deliver-and Northern lacks the get up and go to do any of them.

I concur and I reckon so would Northern. Divvy up the franchise I say.

 

[Anvil1984]

The Newcastle to Middlesbrough via the coast route will not go more than hourly off peak because pathing does not permit between Pelaw Jn and Sunderland. Once again there used to be a 30 min service between Newcastle and Sunderland (reduced from 15 minutes after Metro arrived) and Nexus had one of the services taken off citing problems with Metro punctuality., you couldn't path it down ECML (not even just to Stillington) due to lack of paths on the ECML

Off peak Monday to Friday I honestly don't think there is much demand for an extra service in any case, Lucky if you have 60 passengers on at a push, its a lines when busy its really busy when its not busy its quiet, I don't think you would double the numbers out by having double the trains just merely spreading them out between the 2. Would like to know which of these weekday midday trains are full and standing I work them and its never been anywhere near that, only really the services out of Newcastle between 1530 and 1730

 

[142094]

The half-hourly service was funded by Nexus, so they took the decision to remove the subsidy paid to Northern for the Newcastle - Sunderland local stoppers and use that for the Metro service - this had two beneficial effects for Nexus in that they no longer had to pay the subsidy, and the funding transferred to the Metro would be in part recouped by extra farebox revenue.

 

[Jonny]

Gateshead town centre is within walking distance of Newcastle Central station, so a station there would be utterly pointless. The borough has heavy rail stations at the MetroCentre, Heworth, Blaydon and Dunston.

The only trouble is the steep walk uphill on the Gateshead side after coming off the High Level Bridge (the pedestrian/road deck) or even the Tyne Bridge. The Metro station at Gateshead Interchange ("Gateshead") has two levels of escalators.

Washington would only get a station- and an inconvenient one out by the Wetlands Centre at that- if the Leamside Line was re-opened. Whilst the Leamside Line is technically mothballed (although sections around Fencehouses are missing, partly stolen and partly where the level crossing was removed), re-opening it would be extremely expensive. Again, would this be a worthwhile expenditure? Probably not.

There are large, continuous swathes of undeveloped land running alongside the single carriageway sections of the A195. There's plenty of room to squeeze in a couple of full-size railway tracks which could even get close to the main interchange/shopping centre.

 

[TUC]

The question is, if there was a demand for a half-hourly Middlesbrough-Newcastle service, why should Metro's need for paths take priority over a service that would benefit the wider region-and still offer a service to most Sunderland-Newcastle stations along the way?
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Off peak Monday to Friday I honestly don't think there is much demand for an extra service in any case, Lucky if you have 60 passengers on at a push, its a lines when busy its really busy when its not busy its quiet, I don't think you would double the numbers out by having double the trains just merely spreading them out between the 2. Would like to know which of these weekday midday trains are full and standing I work them and its never been anywhere near that, only really the services out of Newcastle between 1530 and 1730

But I'd argue that is a result of unattractive fares and poor marketing. The fact that Go North East's express bus service from Teesside to Newcastle has over the years increased from a two hourly to an hourly and now a half hourly frequency suggests that there is a significant, growing demand.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What are peoples opinions on metro to sunderland? Is it likely to cause long term future problems? Lack of space for passenger and freight? Especially freight where ECML becomes even more full.

 

[142094]

What are peoples opinions on metro to sunderland? Is it likely to cause long term future problems? Lack of space for passenger and freight? Especially freight where ECML becomes even more full.

More people use the line between Sunderland and Newcastle now than previously, so in that respect it has been good for the local area. The best idea would be for the Leamside line to be reopened so extra passengers services could go via Washington, and then there is also the option for freight to be split between the two lines.

The question is, if there was a demand for a half-hourly Middlesbrough-Newcastle service, why should Metro's need for paths take priority over a service that would benefit the wider region-and still offer a service to most Sunderland-Newcastle stations along the way?

Metro still pays access rights to Network Rail so it would be a case of going to the ORR.

 

[Jonny]

As an aside, have any significant trials been attempted with 25kV AC EMUs at all on the ECML for local services? Having got a hold of a public download copy of the sectional appendix (Google is my friend and it sent me to http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/10563.aspx ) it seems that there are restrictions on 313s and 317s, and that 319s are either completely verboten or no-one has ever even tried to see if they would be able to be used (although 321s and 322s seem to be OK).

It would be a real pity if the 319s couldn't make it up the ECML as they seem to be (based on my limited trip experience) quite sprightly under 25kV AC and they have similar or better power/weight than Northern's DMUs* and a 100mph top speed, making 'flighting' easier for ECML stoppers.

* not including TPE's units though.

 

[ainsworth74]

321s and 322s work/have worked Leeds - Doncaster and Edinburgh - North Berwick services so that would explain why their clearance is a bit more widespread. To be honest I'd be surprised if the 313s, 317s and 319s couldn't also be cleared easily. It's probably just that no-one has bothered doing the paperwork for it yet!

 

[SGS]

150s are also prohibited between Pelaw and Sunderland, so I think the issue is the MkIII-derived multiple units themselves. Presumably this explains why Heaton has never had an allocation of 150s.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 319s were built at York so I expect it is simply that nobody has done the paperwork. The 325s were cleared up the ECML as far as I can remember.

I'm surprised at 150s being specifically banned between Pelaw and Sunderland, is a reason given or is it just that nobody has ever done the paperwork? Obviously MkIIIs themselves can travel that way, together with 156 and 158 stock, so I don't understand that specific restriction.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think I vaguely remember an incident with a Mk4 during the 1990s that led to all the IC225 sets being immediately withdrawn from service for checks- I'm pretty sure that during that time, WYPTE 321s ran Leeds-London and I'm pretty sure some NSE units (317s? 321s?) also made their way to Yorkshire, though perhaps only to Doncaster.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think I vaguely remember an incident with a Mk4 during the 1990s that led to all the IC225 sets being immediately withdrawn from service for checks- I'm pretty sure that during that time, WYPTE 321s ran Leeds-London and I'm pretty sure some NSE units (317s? 321s?) also made their way to Yorkshire, though perhaps only to Doncaster.

You are correct about the WYPTE 321s going to London, still fondly remembered by the Northern (or ATN or whoever) staff of the time.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You are correct about the WYPTE 321s going to London, still fondly remembered by the Northern (or ATN or whoever) staff of the time.

I think it was pre-privatisation though. I knew the WY 3 had gone down, but I was sure some NSE units must've been drafted in too- 3 321s wouldn't have been much of a substitute for 31 Mk4 sets!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think it was pre-privatisation though. I knew the WY 3 had gone down, but I was sure some NSE units must've been drafted in too- 3 321s wouldn't have been much of a substitute for 31 Mk4 sets!

Oh yeah sorry it was BR. Got my dates mixed up.

Yes i think some NSE stuff made it to Donny, but also there was a little bit more slack in the few loco hauled services and some HSTs which covered some too. Generally things weren't worked quite as hard as today and not as many of the mk 4 sets were needed.

 

[TUC]

You are correct about the WYPTE 321s going to London, still fondly remembered by the Northern (or ATN or whoever) staff of the time.

I think it was pre-privatisation though. I knew the WY 3 had gone down, but I was sure some NSE units must've been drafted in too- 3 321s wouldn't have been much of a substitute for 31 Mk4 sets!

it was post-privatisation because I was travelling that day on Virgin Cross Country and I remember the on-train staff gently teasing some GNER staff who had had to board the Virgin service in order to get home.