Train services that are always late

[johntea]

I do Castleford to Saltaire every weekday (and have done for the past 7 years!) and over time have found some common themes :

The services from Saltaire to Leeds are generally always at least 3 minutes later than scheduled. I'm now so confident of this I generally don't even leave the office until about 17:08

On a Tuesday I catch the 10:02 Castleford to Leeds service. I can count on one hand in the past 2 years this train has actually departed on time! Seems to start losing time as of Barnsley. Rather annoying as on the rare occasion it is on time it means I can catch the 10:26 from Leeds to Skipton service.

Are the timetables too tight for their own good? The trains going to Leeds from Sheffield are supposed to arrive at Castleford 2 minutes before their advertised departure time for example which already seems tight considering the driver has to change ends!

 

[Fincra5]

It seems to be a mix...
During peak TOCs want to run as many trains as possible to shift the masses.. especially down here on Southern, the timings are so tight that any delay (More often than not passenger loadings) cause a knock on effect.

 

[Eagle]

I do Castleford to Saltaire every weekday (and have done for the past 7 years!) and over time have found some common themes :

The services from Saltaire to Leeds are generally always at least 3 minutes later than scheduled. I'm now so confident of this I generally don't even leave the office until about 17:08

Actually in that case, although in the public timetable the departure is 17.10, the working timetable gives the departure as 17.12½. So it's always going to seem at least two and a half minutes late (without actually being late).

 

[YorkshireBear]

I have noticed the same from Keighley to Leeds always late, sometimes announced late and on time!

 

[northwichcat]

Are the timetables too tight for their own good?

A lot of timetables were drawn up based on lower loadings and haven't been revised as loadings have increased - slowing down services as a consequence.

Where timetables have been revised to give longer dwell times (something Northern have done with the Mid Cheshire line) they've added the additional dwell time to the quiet services as well. This means the busy services are marginally more punctual. However, a number of guards accidentally give the driver the green light to go from the smaller stations 1-2 minutes before the scheduled departure time. So the timetabling revision to allow longer dwell times creates as many problems, for passengers, as it solves. For the operator they improve their reliability figures and everything looks good!

 

[Squaddie]

Actually in that case, although in the public timetable the departure is 17.10, the working timetable gives the departure as 17.12½. So it's always going to seem at least two and a half minutes late (without actually being late).

So what's the reasoning behind that? It simply leads passengers to think that their train leaves late every day (as the opening post proves!), and further nibbles away at satisfaction with the rail network. Passengers are unlikely to remember, nor even notice, the time at which the train arrives at their destination: all they will remember is sitting on the train looking at their watch and wondering why it's leaving late again.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Probably to allow an easy to remember clockface timetable?

 

[Squaddie]

Probably to allow an easy to remember clockface timetable?

But you can't have every departure time as a round number; that would be ridiculous.

If the train is scheduled to depart at 17:12 then why not say so?

 

[Lockwood]

Any Cardiff Central - Portsmouth Harbour train will be late at Portsmouth & Southsea, from what I've seen.

 

[tony_mac]

According to my analysis* of past running records, about 50% of trains from Saltaire via Shipley are on time (within 1 minute).
Services from New St via King's Norton are the worst offenders (80% late), followed by the Cumbrian Coast services.


(*it's mostly untested code, so could be nonsense)

 

[the sniper]

The Wolverhampton to BHM/Walsall stopping service almost always leaves Wolves at least 4 minutes late, though leaving anything up to 10 minutes late isn't unusual.

You can see it here today, you're looking for all the trains to Walsall with the headcode starting 2AXX: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...13/11/19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Eagle]

Services from New St via King's Norton are the worst offenders (80% late), followed by the Cumbrian Coast services.

Do you mean services via University and King's Norton, or via Camp Hill and King's Norton? Long distance trains use both routes.

 

[The Planner]

But you can't have every departure time as a round number; that would be ridiculous.

If the train is scheduled to depart at 17:12 then why not say so?

Beacuse it allows the train to depart earlier than the WTT if it can do so. It isn't a new thing and happens in a multitude of locations.

 

[Tracky]

It also makes it easier to keep time if the public are there and waiting ready to get on. It should also avoid some of the late runners, who can cause a platform train interface safety issue.

 

[30907]

But you can't have every departure time as a round number; that would be ridiculous.

Clockface timetable only means "at the same minutes past each hour" which (as the LSWR pointed out around AD1916) is easy to remember.

Not that the Airedale line is a very good example....

 

[Crossover]

Anything from Dewsbury towards Leeds. Can regularly count on the TPE's being a couple of minutes late!

 

[edwin_m]

Anything from Dewsbury towards Leeds. Can regularly count on the TPE's being a couple of minutes late!

This and others may be to do with timing margins. For example a train from A to D may have engineering allowance in its timings approaching the major station/junction at D, which allows enough time to recover from one temporary speed restriction on its journey from A. However the times at intermediate stations B and C have to be worked out on the worst case of the TSR being between C and D, so if the TSR is actually between A and B the train will be late at B and C but on time at D.

 

[Crossover]

This and others may be to do with timing margins. For example a train from A to D may have engineering allowance in its timings approaching the major station/junction at D, which allows enough time to recover from one temporary speed restriction on its journey from A. However the times at intermediate stations B and C have to be worked out on the worst case of the TSR being between C and D, so if the TSR is actually between A and B the train will be late at B and C but on time at D.

Oh absolutely. In the example of mine, they have often made up the time & more by the time they are at Leeds, unless they are very delayed or the signallers aren't playing the game :P

Though out of interest, I have just done a quick search of all TPE departures from Dewsbury today towards Leeds, and you'll see a fair percentage don't quite hit RT!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=TP

 

[RichJF]

17:59 London Bridge to Horsham is late every day. Even when the inward journey is early, the return leg is late without fail!

Southeastern crew doing a Southern service.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Any service from Bristol Parkway towards Cardiff will be at least three or four minutes late!

 

[Class172]

One regular offender is the 0746 Droitwich Spa to Worcester Fgt St. When I first caught it 5 years ago, it was the 0748 and a couple of years ago changed to its current time, however it consistently arrives at the old time. It makes me wonder why they changed it? :roll:

 

[D6975]

Take a look at table 101, Wrexham-Bidston.
The published timings are clearly not what actually happens.
Many return services are booked to depart before the incoming one arrives!

 

[edwin_m]

Take a look at table 101, Wrexham-Bidston.
The published timings are clearly not what actually happens.
Many return services are booked to depart before the incoming one arrives!

The turnaround in the working timetable is so short that the padding in the public timetable makes it negative! However with this short turnaround it's a good idea to encourage the passengers to be there a bit before time.

 

[Bishopstone]

The M-F 18.23 London Bridge - Eastbourne (2x 442) leaves late almost every day: typically 2-7 minutes. Often the ECS don't arrive until 18.20, then the driver needs to change ends, so you're setting yourself up for failure.

The 'slot' is then missed at East Croydon, adding another five minutes of lateness.

With a good run through Gatwick, which you can get on this train, a minute or two is often clawed back by Three Bridges. Thereafter, however, the stop-start nature of the service is not suited to the 442s and, even under clear signals, it's common to lose another five minutes by Lewes. The Wessies simply can't keep to 377 timings on this train.

The Seaford branch connection from the 18.23 is four minutes, and it's broken on about two-thirds of the occasions I use this jinxed train. It's quite usual for the 18.23 to be 10 minutes late leaving Lewes (ie about 19.37), and as it's then all stations to Eastbourne, it often holds up the limited stop Marshlink service behind (19.44 from Lewes).

Two or three timetables ago, Southern tried using 442s on one of the Up peak East Coastway trains that is all-shacks Eastbourne to Gatwick. It was a disaster, and the diagram changed back to 377s mid-timetable.

 

[306024]

I must have been lucky the other week as despite a 6 late start (ECS late arriving) it made up most of the time. The platform working at London Bridge is very tight now the redevelopment work as taken some of the platforms. And of course it is slippery leaf season just now.

 

[yorksrob]

My morning train always seems to arrive in my home station around five minutes late. Infact it's been the same every day for at least the last four months.

No biggie in the grand scheme of things, but can't they just re-time it so that I can have an extra five minutes in bed !

 

[dvboy]

The Wolverhampton to BHM/Walsall stopping service almost always leaves Wolves at least 4 minutes late, though leaving anything up to 10 minutes late isn't unusual.

You can see it here today, you're looking for all the trains to Walsall with the headcode starting 2AXX: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...13/11/19/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Its WTT is one min late IIRC, but quite often held back for a late running southbond XC, and if that's late enough, incoming Liverpool and Shrewsbury trains.

 

[tsr]

1C71 1527 Bognor Regis / 1C73 1512 Portsmouth Harbour - London Victoria (joins at Horsham to run under 1C71) generally has minor delays (or worse) throughout, and frequently fails to call at Redhill at 1647 as it is supposed to, instead being sent via the Up Quarry - whereby it invariably makes up a handful of minutes.

 

[notadriver]

The M-F 18.23 London Bridge - Eastbourne (2x 442) leaves late almost every day: typically 2-7 minutes. Often the ECS don't arrive until 18.20, then the driver needs to change ends, so you're setting yourself up for failure.

The 'slot' is then missed at East Croydon, adding another five minutes of lateness.

With a good run through Gatwick, which you can get on this train, a minute or two is often clawed back by Three Bridges. Thereafter, however, the stop-start nature of the service is not suited to the 442s and, even under clear signals, it's common to lose another five minutes by Lewes. The Wessies simply can't keep to 377 timings on this train.

The Seaford branch connection from the 18.23 is four minutes, and it's broken on about two-thirds of the occasions I use this jinxed train. It's quite usual for the 18.23 to be 10 minutes late leaving Lewes (ie about 19.37), and as it's then all stations to Eastbourne, it often holds up the limited stop Marshlink service behind (19.44 from Lewes).

Two or three timetables ago, Southern tried using 442s on one of the Up peak East Coastway trains that is all-shacks Eastbourne to Gatwick. It was a disaster, and the diagram changed back to 377s mid-timetable.

Are 442s definitely running to 377 timings ? If so that's a disaster. I'm just trying to work out power to weight ratios and 442s are unfortunately a generation behind. To give an illustration of this a traditional 4 car slam door unit like a VEP has a power to weight ratio of around 7 hp / ton. When the 442s came along they had a better power to weight ratio of around 8 hp / ton. (A 4 Rep + 8 TC formation is only slightly better than a 4 VEP in theory at 7.2 hp / ton). Electrostars work out at well over 11 hp / ton. They have a higher percentage of powered bogies compared with a 442 and superior WSP equipment aiding their acceleration in adverse weather conditions. I would say a 4rep+4Tc formation is roughly equivalent to the performance of an 8 car electrostar.

 

[Blindtraveler]

not used it in years however Scotrails evening Glasgow QS to Kirkaldy was relgiously late a few years back, odly routed and usually at least 20 down by Inverkeithing