Query - inadvertent fare evasion?

[Baxenden Bank]

A passenger boards a train at Longton, Staffordshire (no ticket office, no TVM, no permit machine, not in the EMT or LM penalty fare area so allowed to buy the full range of tickets on the train).

He does the short hop to Stoke-on-Trent (2.3 miles, conductor busy selling tickets to other passengers so no reasonable opportunity to buy) and alights.

At Stoke-on-Trent he goes straight to the ticket machine on the same platform and purchases a ticket to Manchester (or anywhere else). As this ticket machine only sells tickets from Stoke-on-Trent, clearly the ticket will say Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester rather than Longton to Manchester. Has our passenger just committed the RORA offence of intentionally avoiding paying the fare? I think the answer is yes because, although it is done inadvertently, that is no excuse at law.

Many fares for Longton are the same as those from Stoke, some differ e.g. Virgin only fares to Manchester, regardless, his ticket does not cover the Longton to Stoke element and I read on the disputes board of people being ‘done’ for minimal amounts and I think even a £0.00 excess.

This may seem an unlikely scenario but, all it needs is for one of those nasty Northern revenue protection types to see our passenger jump off the train, go to the machine and for the RPI to then say ‘can I see your ticket please sir, oh dear, this ticket says from Stoke-on-Trent but I just saw you alight from the train from Derby, that’s £80 plus please'. Or worse.

I ask out of curiosity having read some of the posts relating to Northern and their activities at Blackburn in particular. Personally I always trek through the subway and get a Longton ticket from the staffed counter. PS Our passenger may not need to get back to Longton on the return as the evening service is rubbish and there are alternative bus services.

As an aside, are there many ticket machines (and which TOC's) which allow you to select an origin other than the one where the ticket machine is located?

 

[duncanp]

I have a similar query. I took a trip to Frinton On Sea yesterday, and whilst waiting for the train back I noticed that the ticket machine did not sell any rail discounted tickets (eg. Senior Citizen, Network Card)

As the ticket office was closed, what should someone wanting a discounted ticket do? Buy a single ticket to Kirby Cross (the next station) and use that as part payment of the ticket that you require, or get on the train without paying anything?

 

[beeza1]

This is a similar question to one I was going to ask,
Say I travel to BNY on an evening, my start point is an unmanned station with no TVM, the service is run by Northern so it's unlikely the guard will come round selling tickets,(we have already established in another thread there is no obligation on the PAX to "seek out the guard"), I arrive at BNY to find the ticket office closed, the TVM will only sell tickets from BNY, and only for that day, (according to NRE it doesn't have a TVM), so in reality I have not been given "an opportunity to pay", it would appear the only option is to "walk away", unless someone more knowledgeable can suggest otherwise.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I would say the average Joe would make a judgement call on what they thought was common sense or past experience.

They would then join the railway lottery as to who they meet on the way as to what ticket they get sold or punishment is given out.

They will then come on here and be told that because they haven't swallowed a dictionary of rail information before they travel they are rightly damned and should write a blank cheque out to whoever.

They will then spend the rest of their lives in the slow lane as they painfully search out the manager at Tesco in order to demand the terms and conditions appropriate to the loaf of bread they "intend" to buy.

 

[yorkie]

If he has evaded the fare, he has evaded £0.00 as the fares are the same (assuming he bought an inter-available ticket).

Had he travelled from Blythe Bridge, and returning the same day, then he could be in the dock being accused of evading the fare of -£1.20.

If I was him I would have saved £1.20 by visiting the ticket office and asking for a ticket from Blythe Bridge.

It would be very interesting to see either case in Court
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have a similar query. I took a trip to Frinton On Sea yesterday, and whilst waiting for the train back I noticed that the ticket machine did not sell any rail discounted tickets (eg. Senior Citizen, Network Card)

As the ticket office was closed, what should someone wanting a discounted ticket do? Buy a single ticket to Kirby Cross (the next station) and use that as part payment of the ticket that you require, or get on the train without paying anything?

This question crops up often. NRCoC says buy a ticket to the next stop and do an exchange. But do that and some Guards will not be happy because it may not be easy for them to excess a non-discounted ticket to the next stop to a discounted ticket to the correct stop. In some cases an excess is not possible and a refund form has to be completed.

Ask the relevant Train Company what you should do and keep their response in a safe place.

Different Train Companies have different opinions on what you should do, and even TOCs with Penalty Fare schemes have been known to tell passengers off for adhering to the NRCoC and say next time don't buy a ticket at the origin. I witnessed a rude ticket clerk at Waterloo say this to a customer, and the customer had to wait weeks before his refund arrived.

 

[beeza1]

I would say the average Joe would make a judgement call on what they thought was common sense or past experience.

They would then join the railway lottery as to who they meet on the way as to what ticket they get sold or punishment is given out.

They will then come on here and be told that because they haven't swallowed a dictionary of rail information before they travel they are rightly damned and should write a blank cheque out to whoever.

They will then spend the rest of their lives in the slow lane as they painfully search out the manager at Tesco in order to demand the terms and conditions appropriate to the loaf of bread they "intend" to buy.

This made me smile, it just about sums things up.
One thing I have noticed while I have been on the forum is when someone asks a question such as this thread, the "passenger is ALWAYS wrong" brigade, quoting byelaw this and T&C that, are surprisingly quiet.

 

[dzug2]

I have a similar query. I took a trip to Frinton On Sea yesterday, and whilst waiting for the train back I noticed that the ticket machine did not sell any rail discounted tickets (eg. Senior Citizen, Network Card)

Did it actually not sell such tickets?

The first time I bought a ticket at a machine with a rail card it took me some time to realise that it's a fair way into the buying process that the railcard option comes up.

Designs may vary of course

 

[Mojo]

Assuming the National Rail website is correct then the type of machine on the platform there does offer Railcard discounts: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_FRI/images/photos/800/o1877-0000028.jpg

Unless of course it is programmed differently to all other machines of that type.

 

[burneside]

I remember a few years ago when FGW installed ticket machines at a number of stations in the south west, and incredibly they did not have the Devon & Cornwall railcard option built in. It took many months for that to be rectified and in the interim passengers had to buy tickets on the train when the ticket office was closed.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If he has evaded the fare, he has evaded £0.00 as the fares are the same (assuming he bought an inter-available ticket).

Had he travelled from Blythe Bridge, and returning the same day, then he could be in the dock being accused of evading the fare of -£1.20.

If I was him I would have saved £1.20 by visiting the ticket office and asking for a ticket from Blythe Bridge.

Don't tell everybody the fare for the longer journey is cheaper - everyone will start walking up to Stoke office and asking for one - which, of course, they are obliged to sell.

Try Blythe Bridge to Rugeley Trent Valley!

 

[duncanp]

Did it actually not sell such tickets?

The first time I bought a ticket at a machine with a rail card it took me some time to realise that it's a fair way into the buying process that the railcard option comes up.

Designs may vary of course

I didn't go that far. When you press the button for a full price ticket, it takes you straight to the screen confirming the price.

 

[Mojo]

I didn't go that far. When you press the button for a full price ticket, it takes you straight to the screen confirming the price.

Yes; you then normally select 'Railcard' in the corner.

 

[Be3G]

Yes; you then normally select 'Railcard' in the corner.

Are you sure / have they changed the machines' programming? In my experience of using other Greater Anglia machines, after selecting the destination and type of ticket you get taken to a screen listing all of the ticket/passenger details, on which there's a button to add a railcard along the right-hand side (if I recall correctly, it's beneath the button to change the number of passengers).

 

[Mojo]

Are you sure / have they changed the machines' programming? In my experience of using other Greater Anglia machines, after selecting the destination and type of ticket you get taken to a screen listing all of the ticket/passenger details, on which there's a button to add a railcard along the right-hand side (if I recall correctly, it's beneath the button to change the number of passengers).

Is that not what I alluded to? duncanp said it takes you to the screen confirming the price (which also has ticket details on it), and then I said you need to click the 'Railcard' box.

 

[Be3G]

The earlier version of your post said the button is/was in the bottom-left corner, which in my experience it isn't (it's along the right-hand side) – my point being, maybe there's more than one version of the software on these machines, which has perhaps led to duncanp's confusion.

 

[Mojo]

Oh I see now; apologies; I did originally put bottom-left when I did of course mean bottom-right so changed it to 'corner' when I realised my error, so you must have Quoted me just as I edited it! I tested it with the Capital Connect machines that use the same software and Railcard option is indeed on the bottom-right.