Crossing london without a maltese cross

[AshValePsngr]

Hi All,

There are tickets that are valid for crossing London without a Maltese cross on them. I don't harbour much hope of london underground gateline staff letting me through on one of these tickets. Can anyone share any success/failure stories or tactics when they have attempted the same?

According to the document "How to use the national routeing guide"

The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the Routeing Guide.
In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.​

 

[maniacmartin]

Your ticket will not oeprate the Underground gates and you will have a very hard time convincing staff to let you through

 

[CyrusWuff]

It should also be noted that tickets with an LU "Zonal" origin/destination (such as U1 LONDON) don't feature a Maltese Cross either, despite their obvious LU/DLR validity.

Gateline staff should be aware of this, but you may need to be assertive...

 

[yorkie]

Can anyone share any success/failure stories or tactics when they have attempted the same?

Yes. On one occasion, on a ticket from Grantham to Stroud (route Any Permitted, back when 'LONDON' was listed in the yellow pages) I spoke to someone who was totally brain-dead and it was the most draining experience I've ever had the misfortune to be in. Fortunately, after several minutes and it becoming abundantly clear I was not going to cave in, his colleague said "He's right. Let them through". Success! The EC and FGW guards accepted the ticket without question.

However there are loads of railway staff who incorrectly believe that the lack of "+" means a ticket is not valid via London. The vast majority will be happy to be shown the relevant page from the Routeing Guide and be grateful for the addition to their knowledge. But a small minority, well....

And on LU it's not a small minority.

 

[Eagle]

Of course, the solution to this would be for someone to check every ticket against the routeing guide, and add a cross to the route for every combination that the RG permits via London.

But that thinking is far too joined-up, isn't it?

 

[poshfan]

Slightly OT, in the summer I went up to Fort William for a few days, and used the sleeper both ways. According to the ScotRail website my 1st class tickets included London underground zones 1 and 2. There was no cross on the tickets but they were marked as to and from London terminals rather than London Euston.

On the way up, the barriers at Kings Cross tube accepted by ticket but the barriers at Euston tube didn't, but a ticket inspector let me through.

On the way back the Euston tube barriers again rejected my ticket, but this time the inspector wouldn't let me through, he looked at the ticket and said that because my ticket is valid to London terminals, and Euston is a London terminal, that's as far as I can go on that ticket.

I didn't argue, in fact I didn't bother with the tube, but walked to Kings Cross, which is only 10 to 15 mins away anyway.

 

[maniacmartin]

The Scotrail website was wrong. London Terminals does not normally include a tube trip.

I suspect the Kings Cross gates at the tube accepted the ticket as many scottish stations to London Terminals are also valid down the East Coast mainline, which means they are valid to Moorgate (changing at Finsbury Park). Due to an obscure interavailability rule, you can take the tube from Kings Cross to Moorgate only with such a ticket, and can only break your journey at certain tube stations. No such rule applies for Euston.

 

[poshfan]

Thanks for that. If I go again I would probably walk anyway, easier than going up and down all those corridors with luggage for the sake of one stop.

 

[Mojo]

The Scotrail website was wrong. London Terminals does not normally include a tube trip.

The website is not wrong; l believe the ticket was issued incorrectly. When l went First class on the sleeper a Zone U12 ticket was included, as well as a 'Supplement' coupon which was the money off in the lounge car voucher.

 

[trainophile]

On a recent trip I had stupidly booked Off Peak returns Hereford to Paddington, when we actually needed to get to King's Cross. I asked the TM on our FGW if we could excess our tickets, and he duly sold us supplementary return tickets at £3.95 for each of us, which I believe is cheaper than it would have cost us to buy separate LU tickets.

These read 'From Hereford to U1'. They worked the barriers fine in both directions.

 

[greatkingrat]

I wonder if after the recent routeing guide changes, there are now tickets that do have a Maltese cross, but are not valid via London?

 

[soil]

I wonder if after the recent routeing guide changes, there are now tickets that do have a Maltese cross, but are not valid via London?

There have always been such tickets, e.g., Ascot - Worcester 'Not Via Birmingham'.

But I think they are more likely to be ticketing errors (i.e. an unnecessary Maltese Cross) than routeing mismatches.

 

[greatkingrat]

Judging by the price it looks like that ticket is intended to permit Ascot - Waterloo - Paddington - Worcester, even though it is not a permitted route.

 

[FenMan]

Of course, the solution to this would be for someone to check every ticket against the routeing guide, and add a cross to the route for every combination that the RG permits via London.

But that thinking is far too joined-up, isn't it?

There's evidence that thought has been applied. Many tickets from SWT-land to SE London destinations served from Charing Cross are marked LONDON NOT UND as travellers are expected to walk from WAT to WAE.

 

[yorkie]

There's evidence that thought has been applied. Many tickets from SWT-land to SE London destinations served from Charing Cross are marked LONDON NOT UND as travellers are expected to walk from WAT to WAE.

Yes, that would be easier than walking from Paddington, though passengers could still choose to walk from Paddington if they wished (or make their own alternative arrangements).

 

[soil]

What has Paddington got to do with SWT and SE London?

 

[bb21]

Some SWT destinations are valid into Paddington as much as Waterloo AIUI. The argument is that there is no need for a cross-London marker to be present. One can simply walk from one London terminal to the other, or transfer by other means at his own cost.

In this sense, I believe that it is equally valid for such a journey to be going into/out of Paddington on one side, and into/out of St Pancake on HS1 on the other, provided that the passenger makes it across central London at his own cost.

 

[furlong]

I wonder if after the recent routeing guide changes, there are now tickets that do have a Maltese cross, but are not valid via London?

The Routeing Guide states:

The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the Routeing Guide.

The Maltese Cross is described as the "Via London" symbol. I take that paragraph to mean you always have the option to travel via London if the Maltese Cross appears on your ticket.

 

[soil]

I think the Maltese Cross is essentially a 'this ticket will work the underground barriers' marker. It shouldn't imply any change to the valid National Rail routeings of the ticket (nor indeed should its absence imply the reverse).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some SWT destinations are valid into Paddington as much as Waterloo AIUI. The argument is that there is no need for a cross-London marker to be present. One can simply walk from one London terminal to the other, or transfer by other means at his own cost.

In this sense, I believe that it is equally valid for such a journey to be going into/out of Paddington on one side, and into/out of St Pancake on HS1 on the other, provided that the passenger makes it across central London at his own cost.

I think you are right, although validity into Paddington is far from universal; also it's worth noting that in practice where there is an explicit choice of tickets going via Reading into Paddington and heading into Waterloo, the via Reading option is priced higher.

For example:

Wokingham - London Terminals SDR
£41.20 Any Permitted
£27.90 Ascot/Guildford
£26.50 Via Staines

Therefore a ticket such as Wokingham - Greenwich SDR, where the only available ticket route is 'London Not Underground', and the price is £30.30, the intention must be that you ONLY travel to Waterloo, since it is much cheaper than a simple Wokingham - London ticket valid via Reading, and if you travel via Paddington you are being a very naughty boy.

 

[travels]

Hello,
I am new to all this. I have an "any permitted route" off-peak return Manchester-Cambridge. No Maltese cross on it. The website offered me a route across country, but it is also possible to go down to London and back. I would like to do this via-London route on the return journey (and break in London).

Looking at the routing guide, Manchester is a group station, and Cambridge is also a routing point in its own right. The yellow guide (if I've got that right) gave "LONDON" as one of the options for Manchester-Cambridge. There would be no doubling-back - just into Euston, out of KX. As it was complicated, I thought I'd check with rail staff.

I asked at my local station (town outside Manchester). The ticket-seller told me that "any permitted" meant I could take any route at all...

At Manchester, a member of staff told me that 1) no maltese cross = not via London, and 2) if I had paid a lower fare, that meant not via London. However, looking at the website, I see that there are tickets on sale that DO specify a route (i.e. making you go cross-country), whereas my ticket does not say that.

I don't want to get on an expensive London train only to be charged the whole journey or something draconian. Any advice welcome!

 

[Urban Gateline]

Hello,
I am new to all this. I have an "any permitted route" off-peak return Manchester-Cambridge. No Maltese cross on it. The website offered me a route across country, but it is also possible to go down to London and back. I would like to do this via-London route on the return journey (and break in London).

Looking at the routing guide, Manchester is a group station, and Cambridge is also a routing point in its own right. The yellow guide (if I've got that right) gave "LONDON" as one of the options for Manchester-Cambridge. There would be no doubling-back - just into Euston, out of KX. As it was complicated, I thought I'd check with rail staff.

I asked at my local station (town outside Manchester). The ticket-seller told me that "any permitted" meant I could take any route at all...

At Manchester, a member of staff told me that 1) no maltese cross = not via London, and 2) if I had paid a lower fare, that meant not via London. However, looking at the website, I see that there are tickets on sale that DO specify a route (i.e. making you go cross-country), whereas my ticket does not say that.

I don't want to get on an expensive London train only to be charged the whole journey or something draconian. Any advice welcome!

Your ticket shows as having a maltese cross according to BRFares:

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=0438&dest=CBG

Could you post a picture of it if you have already collected it? As I cannot see an "Any permitted" Off-Peak Return without a maltese cross!

 

[telstarbox]

In this case you could also walk from Euston to King's Cross (10 minutes along Euston Road) if you did have any trouble.