Displaced Train Crew / DOO

[455driver]

I thought the on board managers on the Javelin services earned more than the regular guards on southeastern although correct me if I'm wrong

Yeah and?

Why dont you compare 'normal' TIs like those up StrathClyde way and not some pseudo la di da 'high speed' service!

Do you honestly think TOCs like SWT and Southern etc would keep the (ex)guards pay the same as it is now when they become TIs?
If so you are deluded in the extreme.

As you like using specific examples do you think guards should be paid the same as drivers?
They are on Eurostar so why not on all the other TOCs?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I don't think rule book has ever allowed slam door trains to run DOO with passengers other than the 442 s and 303s which had their slam door luggage areas locked I think

I can find no prohibitions in the Rulebook for slam door trains working DOO. There are indeed some rules facilitating such a practice, for example in module SS1, section 3.11 "Dispatching a DO train with central door locking from a staffed platform"

 

[TEW]

Are there or have there ever been DOO slam door trains out of interest?

Not a passenger one I don't think. I've just looked and there are two rulebook paragraphs of despatching DOO slam door trains, for with and without platforms, and they both only concern staffed platforms. I can't find anything on DOO trains with slam doors at staffed platforms, so I can only assume it is a requirement for any DOO slam door train to be despatched by platform staff.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are there or have there ever been DOO slam door trains out of interest?

There were loads. Although always by accident!

 

[Carlisle]

Yeah and?

Why dont you compare 'normal' TIs like those up StrathClyde way and not some pseudo la di da 'high speed' service!

Do you honestly think TOCs like SWT and Southern etc would keep the (ex)guards pay the same as it is now when they become TIs?
If so you are deluded in the extreme.

As you like using specific examples do you think guards should be paid the same as drivers?
They are on Eurostar so why not on all the other TOCs?

I appreciate the points you made but is the fear of change you mentioned a good enough reason just to set everything in stone for the next 50 or so years the railways is in most areas a growing industry SWT for example employs a fair few more staff now than it did when first privatised

 

[notadriver]

The Javelin is a special case. CTRL rules mean someone other than the driver needs to be in board trained in CTRL rules for evacuations in the tunnels. OBMs provide high quality customer focused service which might explain why their basic pay is higher than a conductor guard.

 

[SETCommuter]

The Javelin is a special case. CTRL rules mean someone other than the driver needs to be in board trained in CTRL rules for evacuations in the tunnels.

But could a HS service run without an OBM on the stretch say, from Ashford to Margate ?

 

[notadriver]

No all Javelins in passenger service must have an OBM aboard.

 

[Monty]

A quick question, if a OBM is trained to assist in safely evacuating a train it would mean they have some form of PTS training? That should make their role safety critical alone even if they do not assist in dispatching of the train itself.

 

[notadriver]

A quick question, if a OBM is trained to assist in safely evacuating a train it would mean they have some form of PTS training? That should make their role safety critical alone even if they do not assist in dispatching of the train itself.

Good point but I know they are not classed as safety critical - and don't have to pass a safety critical medical. Any evacuation is done under instruction from the driver. It's technically a DOO (P) train even though it isn't (?!)

 

[A-driver]

A quick question, if a OBM is trained to assist in safely evacuating a train it would mean they have some form of PTS training? That should make their role safety critical alone even if they do not assist in dispatching of the train itself.

It's the same as RPIs etc, they don't have PTS but are given reduced training in line side essentials for emergency use only. But as said, they would work under instruction from the driver.

 

[Monty]

It's the same as RPIs etc, they don't have PTS but are given reduced training in line side essentials for emergency use only. But as said, they would work under instruction from the driver.

That is suprising, we had no such training when I was an RPI we were basically told trackside was none of our concern and we should contact NR/Control in an emergency. It's comforting that SET at least give some instruction when it comes to emergencies.

 

[455driver]

It's the same as RPIs etc, they don't have PTS but are given reduced training in line side essentials for emergency use only. But as said, they would work under instruction from the driver.

What if the driver is incapacitated?
Do they just stand around doing nothing because they are not trained?
Anyone the driver deems competent (staff or otherwise) can assist in an evacuation!

 

[Fincra5]

But if a guard is not available they will run those DOO where allowed.

Theres a whole agreement about that.. its only during disruption and can't be used if there is no guard due to sickness or absence... 12 car DOO is under "Extreme Circumstances" ..

 

[A-driver]

Theres a whole agreement about that.. its only during disruption and can't be used if there is no guard due to sickness or absence... 12 car DOO is under "Extreme Circumstances" ..

I had 2 seperate occasions when I worked there when I was on east grinstead trains and was asked to run DOO to Croydon and pick up a guard at Selhurst on the way. Wasn't disruption but I believe due to a displaced or late running guard. Didn't realise there was an agreement, hope I didn't break any agreements by agreeing to it.

 

[313103]

Theres a whole agreement about that.. its only during disruption and can't be used if there is no guard due to sickness or absence... 12 car DOO is under "Extreme Circumstances" ..

And I bet that this agreement is often broken! After all what is more important a cancelled train and therefore a poor performance ratings and a major hit on the PPM figures or a delayed train with just a small hit on the PPM ratings.

Anyway this will be irrelevant in the coming year Southern plan to have all their core routes DOO by the end of 2014, 2015 at the latest.

The future for Guards is non existent in todays cost cutting, money saving McNulty style train set. The railways of the future will be minimalistic to say the least. More and more trains running with lesser and lesser staff. That's the way of the future.