Displaced Train Crew / DOO

[SETCommuter]

Hi all,

A question from a commuters perspective if I may....

• As I understand it, Southeastern "High Speed" trains are DOO but have an "onboard manager" who checks tickets & removes newspapers.
• Southeastern "Metro" services are DOO without a conductor.
• Southeastern "Mainline" services have a conductor.

So, when there is no conductor available for a mainline service, why can this train not become a DOO service and therefore keep to the schedule ?

 

[A-driver]

Hi all,

A question from a commuters perspective if I may....

• As I understand it, Southeastern "High Speed" trains are DOO but have an "onboard manager" who checks tickets & removes newspapers.
• Southeastern "Metro" services are DOO without a conductor.
• Southeastern "Mainline" services have a conductor.

So, when there is no conductor available for a mainline service, why can this train not become a DOO service and therefore keep to the schedule ?

This was discussed a while back but basically depends on the route and traction. Only the metro stations have DOO equipment installed so if a DOO train stopped at a station out of the DOO area the driver would have no cleared way of dispatching the train. I know people go into 'why can't he just look back' etc but if the method of working is not cleared then should anything go wrong the driver and controller who cleared the DOO train would both be liable to prosecution.

Plus it comes down to signaling systems and communication systems installed.

Basically if the route isn't set up for DOO then it won't be able to run without the second member of staff on board.

 

[northwichcat]

It does seem one of the strange things with trains in this country is that on one route a service can be cancelled due to no conductor and the driver may still have to work the service to it's usual destination ECS but on another route a service is running DOO.

 

[SETCommuter]

This was discussed a while back but basically depends on the route and traction. Only the metro stations have DOO equipment installed so if a DOO train stopped at a station out of the DOO area the driver would have no cleared way of dispatching the train. I know people go into 'why can't he just look back' etc but if the method of working is not cleared then should anything go wrong the driver and controller who cleared the DOO train would both be liable to prosecution.

Plus it comes down to signaling systems and communication systems installed.

Basically if the route isn't set up for DOO then it won't be able to run without the second member of staff on board.

But sometimes, the Highspeed service will stop at intermediate stations if a mainline train has been cancelled so it must be possible for a DOO service to run at these stations ? The OBM doesn't see the train off.

 

[Tomnick]

Don't the high speed trains have their own cameras for safe dispatch? If so, there won't necessarily be the correct equipment for a 'mainline' train to operate DOO at the same location. A Guard is always required for the safe operation of a passenger train unless various conditions are satisfied and DOO's signed off as a safe method of working for both train and route - including platform equipment, the operation of the trains themselves and possible risks at individual locations...it's not just about dispatching trains though" the Guard's role extends to responsibilities during emergencies and failures, so the signalling and communication systems are important factors too.

 

[Carlisle]

Yes you would need to fit all of Southeasterns class 375 with external cameras for starters

 

[A-driver]

But sometimes, the Highspeed service will stop at intermediate stations if a mainline train has been cancelled so it must be possible for a DOO service to run at these stations ? The OBM doesn't see the train off.

As said above, the high speed units have built in DOO cameras so platform equipment isn't required.

Basically it comes down to a number of factors including dispatch.

 

[Mojo]

As A-driver says, there are a number of minimum standards that have to be met before a train can operate as Driver Only with customers on board. This encompasses everything from the lighting on platforms to how the Platform/Train Interface is managed [on board DOO cameras are not compulsory, there could be platform-mounted mirrors or monitors, platform staff, or if the stock/platform permits the driver could look back], to train radio systems and agreements with Trades Unions.

There are also different methods of operation; for example Southeastern Mainline services have guards but the trains are dispatched like Driver Only trains throughout the Metro area.

 

[TEW]

Whilst on the other hand many Southern services run with guards over routes which could be DOO, with trains the despatched in the normal way by the guard. Services between London, Clapham and East Croydon do sometimes run as DOO when the guard has been displaced for whatever reason.

 

[Carlisle]

Whilst on the other hand many Southern services run with guards over routes which could be DOO, with trains the despatched in the normal way by the guard. Services between London, Clapham and East Croydon do sometimes run as DOO when the guard has been displaced for whatever reason.

I see what you mean ,I guess the way the franchise works it's not financially beneficial for southern to go completely DOO plus the much discussed fight with the unions and they have many routes with small mostly unstaffed stations so would need someone for revenue on trains on quite a few lines similar to javelins I guess

 

[Fincra5]

I would imagine the ODM on HighSpeed services is trained how to dispatch in the case of a CCTV DOO failure.
There has been times us Southern guards have been sent to cover a DOO train where its Cameras have failed.

 

[455driver]

I see what you mean ,I guess the way the franchise works it's not financially beneficial for southern to go completely DOO plus the much discussed fight with the unions

Or the fact that you are talking about all the guards losing their jobs!:roll:

 

[Carlisle]

Or the fact that you are talking about all the guards losing their jobs!:roll:

I was not suggesting anyone loose their jobs

 

[455driver]

I was not suggesting anyone loose their jobs

You are on about making (driver/guard) operated trains DOO, how is that not doing the guards out of a job?

Or are you suggesting that the displaced guards should become Ticket Inspectors or some other non safety critical job?
If so that is similar to telling a Chef that he has been displaced and is starting at McDonalds on Monday morning!

 

[Carlisle]

You are on about making (driver/guard) operated trains DOO, how is that not doing the guards out of a job?

Or are you suggesting that the displaced guards should become Ticket Inspectors or some other non safety critical job?
If so that is similar to telling a Chef that he has been displaced and is starting at McDonalds on Monday morning!

I thought the on board managers on the Javelin services earned more than the regular guards on southeastern although correct me if I'm wrong

 

[A-driver]

Whilst on the other hand many Southern services run with guards over routes which could be DOO, with trains the despatched in the normal way by the guard. Services between London, Clapham and East Croydon do sometimes run as DOO when the guard has been displaced for whatever reason.

But if a guard is not available they will run those DOO where allowed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Or the fact that you are talking about all the guards losing their jobs!:roll:

Of course converting to DOO will see guards lose their jobs. London Overground proved that much.

What's a separate argument is whether this is, commercially, a bad thing or not. The 60s saw station staff and fireman lose their jobs, the change to huge centalised electronic signalling centres saw signalmen lose their jobs. I don't think anybody here would like us to go back to mechanical signalling with a 'box every few miles.

It is extremely sad on a personal level but that's not a good enough reason to not do it.

 

[Captain Chaos]

If Intercity services go fully DOO with just the driver and maybe a trolley on it I'll eat my hat. London - Penzance with just a driver anyone? Sounds great value for money for the passenger in terms of customer service that does...

 

[SETCommuter]

If Intercity services go fully DOO with just the driver and maybe a trolley on it I'll eat my hat. London - Penzance with just a driver anyone? Sounds great value for money for the passenger in terms of customer service that does...

If it arrives on time then I doubt anybody would care.....

 

[sarahj]

Its when its all goes tits up that people are glad for a guard. The other day I was doing a train that was stranded and damaged by a rock fall. The driver dealt with the train and damage bit, I dealt with the passengers and communications with control.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Indeed. FWIW I'm glad of guards on all but inner-urban commuter services and I certainly don't like the 12-carriage DOO trains on First Capital Connect. I don't think they're "unsafe", but I don't like having no staff presence in the passenger areas.

But "guards will lose their jobs" isn't really relevant to the discussion about whether DOO is appropriate, just as signalmen losing their jobs isn't relevant about whether modern signalling should be installed.

 

[notadriver]

I would imagine the ODM on HighSpeed services is trained how to dispatch in the case of a CCTV DOO failure.
There has been times us Southern guards have been sent to cover a DOO train where its Cameras have failed.

Unfortunately no. OBMs are not safety critical staff.

 

[notadriver]

But sometimes, the Highspeed service will stop at intermediate stations if a mainline train has been cancelled so it must be possible for a DOO service to run at these stations ? The OBM doesn't see the train off.

A class 395 has cameras but MUST have an on board manager to run in passenger service.
All other trains must have a conductor to operate outside of the DOO area.

I think you might be taking too much of a laid back approach to train safety if you are suggesting 'who cares as long as if arrives on time' ....

 

[TEW]

Indeed. FWIW I'm glad of guards on all but inner-urban commuter services and I certainly don't like the 12-carriage DOO trains on First Capital Connect. I don't think they're "unsafe", but I don't like having no staff presence in the passenger areas.

12-car 321s on Greater Anglia are just as as bad. The driver could be 3 sets away, with the only way to reach the rear set if they ever needed to via the track, it certainly wouldn't be quick in an emergency.

 

[A-driver]

Indeed. FWIW I'm glad of guards on all but inner-urban commuter services and I certainly don't like the 12-carriage DOO trains on First Capital Connect. I don't think they're "unsafe", but I don't like having no staff presence in the passenger areas.

But "guards will lose their jobs" isn't really relevant to the discussion about whether DOO is appropriate, just as signalmen losing their jobs isn't relevant about whether modern signalling should be installed.

The original FCC agreement was that any 12 car train would have a second member of staff on board in the rear units (normally ticket checkers). This was because southerns DOO agreement is DOO up to 9 car (or 10 for 442s). But this was back when FCC only had a few 12 car TLs and a couple in the GN. Now that 12 car is almost the norm on FCC peak trains the agreement seems to be largely ignored.

 

[Daz28]

I've never understood why the chiltern bubble car needs a guard. Surely there can't be an issue with the driver dispatching a one carriage vehicle?

Also why does the 165 that goes to Paddington need a guard when all others south of Banbury are DOO?

 

[A-driver]

I've never understood why the chiltern bubble car needs a guard. Surely there can't be an issue with the driver dispatching a one carriage vehicle?

Also why does the 165 that goes to Paddington need a guard when all others south of Banbury are DOO?

DOO requirements are not only due to dispatch-it's also nothing to do with length of train. We can self dispatch DOO 12 car trains here whilst up north a guard is needed to dispatch a 1 car.

More often than not dispatch is down to the guard purely because they are already on board and it's a safer method than driver dispatch all things considered. DOO is more often due to signalling and communication systems in use and the associated rules regarding protection, emergency communication etc. which will require more than one member of train crew.

 

[TEW]

I've never understood why the chiltern bubble car needs a guard. Surely there can't be an issue with the driver dispatching a one carriage vehicle?

Is the driver meant to get out of the cab and go and close all the slam doors at every station then? It would either be that or providing station staff at Little Kimble and Monks Risborough, both of which don't currently have them. I'm fairly sure it's a rulebook requirement for DOO slam door trains to have despatch staff.

 

[A-driver]

Is the driver meant to get out of the cab and go and close all the slam doors at every station then? It would either be that or providing station staff at Little Kimble and Monks Risborough, both of which don't currently have them. I'm fairly sure it's a rulebook requirement for DOO slam door trains to have despatch staff.

Are there or have there ever been DOO slam door trains out of interest?

 

[Carlisle]

Are there or have there ever been DOO slam door trains out of interest?

I don't think rule book has ever allowed slam door trains to run DOO with passengers other than the 442 s and 303s which had their slam door luggage areas locked I think